Vaporware Wrote:Ah, so we are back to the "magic" explanation. If you buy that someone can be transported into the grid - when it's not possible, then everything else must be taken at face value and there's no point in questioning the possibilities within the confined of the boundaries established by the movie. That's the same logic as watching Transformers without noticing how wrong the geography is at every possible turn. As noted, I too figured that when Kevin said "he figured out how to do it" he was talking about Clu getting out. In fact that's ALL he could have meant. Kevin didn't know about a huge army of machines and rectified soliders. I'm not a PhD Physicist, but my uncle is. He works at FEMILabs in Batavia, IL. So I'll ask him next time. He more of a super-collider sort of guy, but I'm sure he can weigh in. Would that make you happy? Honestly, though, PhD doesn't make you an expert on all things. In fact all higher education will teach you (and I know this because I do have an advanced degree) is what you don't know about in your own field.

sci-fi does not always have an explanation. Thats why its sci-fi. I am glad you dont wright movies. They would be so boring.

I dont think that they would say what would not work. Unless the producers didnt think of that. Maybe they should get new ones. on line abortion pill misoprostol dose abortion medical abortion pill onlineabortion pills online abortion pill online purchase cytotec abortion

Yet another good post Same with the programs. They are all AI, right? Well that is impossible.

Well how could they think for themselves if not AI?where to buy abortion pill http://blog.bitimpulse.com/template/default.aspx?abortion-types buy abortion pill onlineabortion pills online abortion pill online purchase cytotec abortion

trekking95 Wrote:Well how could they think for themselves if not AI?

Well if you look at the first movie and take Tron for example, he was a security program not an A.I. but he interacts as if he were normal person however his functions are still that of a security program. Another example would be Clu v1 obviously a hacking software but he isnt A.I. The movie would just be boring if they didn't interact as normal people would.where to buy abortion pill http://blog.bitimpulse.com/template/default.aspx?abortion-types buy abortion pill online

trekking95 Wrote:There are lots of movies with impossible things. Star Wars has the Death Star and the Force and aliens. Back to the Future has time travel. Star Trek has time travel, transporters, warp speed, aliens, etc. Avatar has tech to link your mind to a alien. Indiana Jones has supernatural things, same with Pirates of the Caribbean. Terminator has time travel and the AI robots. Alien has space travel and well, aliens!! (list of great movies ends) They are all great movies with impossible things, that cant be always explained, but the movies make it possible and fun to watch!! Cant we just enjoy Tron like we can these movies and more?

All good points,

While it is good to discuss things about the movies and things that happened, questioning if something would or wouldn't have happened when you're not the director or story writer for the movie is a moot point. But I think it shows some insight on how people have viewed the movie, if you don't think it would have happened I cannot see how you would have enjoyed the tension of the latter part of the movie to its fullest.order abortion pill morning after pill price where to buy abortion pill

trekking95 Wrote:There are lots of movies with impossible things. Star Wars has the Death Star and the Force and aliens. Back to the Future has time travel. Star Trek has time travel, transporters, warp speed, aliens, etc. Avatar has tech to link your mind to a alien. Indiana Jones has supernatural things, same with Pirates of the Caribbean. Terminator has time travel and the AI robots. Alien has space travel and well, aliens!! (list of great movies ends) They are all great movies with impossible things, that cant be always explained, but the movies make it possible and fun to watch!! Cant we just enjoy Tron like we can these movies and more?

But all these movies seem to have a set of rules that guide what can and can't be done within that fictional universe. I don't think it's impossible that Clu could have beamed out an army, but it doesn't seem to fit with the rules set within the first Tron. Of course, now that everything has "evolved" in Legacy, anything the writers wanted to do can be explained away by that element. Hopefully, it'll be explained in the future.

don't misunderstand my intent here. Some folks.. typically rabid star trek fans will pick apart of flick until there's nothing left. I tend to see movies as more of a puzzle with a large number of possibilities established if you can wrap your head around the logic of the story. Directors often give us clues and hints as to where the story can go precisely by raising such notions.

Nobody mentioned Magic but me. "Magic" is when one gives up on a logical explanation of plot, consistency, and logic established for the story. Simple saying that "Kevin says it is so, so it is" is the same as explaining things with magic. Magic is the easy out, is what you invoke when things don't make sense otherwise. It's the cheap answer and it rarely ever satisfies.

The key question I'm really getting at here, is this: Why would the director engage and take advice from real physicists in the design of the Mini-Shiva if he intended to throw everything else out the window.

A good story gets one, or maybe two significant departures from reality. This is where we suspend our disbelief. We accept one or two things that we know are impossible because it gives us a good story. We accept those few things with limits established by the parameters of the story. e.g. sound in space for star wars, faster than light travel for all sort of stories, time travel and extra dimensions for many more stories.

A good story establishes limits and bounds and keeps within them - that's what gives us satisfaction.

I'm not even saying that Clu would not have taken his army out., I'm just saying that there's a basic conservation of matter issues that needs to be explained. The director established some basic parameters with the Shiva, and the "whole-army" ideas seems to be inconsistent with the limits.

And another point. Kevin didn't know about the fsckn army until the solar sailer stopped in the rectifier. he was surprised that the train stopped there. He was realizing what Clu was doing when he discovered all the programs held prisoner on that solar sailor.
He was discovering it at the same time as us.
Back in the hideout is when Kevin said that Clue figured that he could be out if Kevin could be in. Completely different point in the movie.

my interpretation is that Kevin arrived at the Clu's plan to escape based on his long meditations. Kevin wants to be out, and he likely realized that Clu (as a copy of himself) would also have the same motivation. There must have been some point early on (when Kevin fought Clu directly) where Kevin realized that Clu wanted his disc and the rest was probably deduced.

That's just my assumption though. You raise a good point, without making such assumptions how would Kevin have known the key requirement of Clu's plan? When he was completely ignorant of Clu's efforts to build a huge conquering army?

Let's not forget that even Jarvis, Clu's chief intel/sycophant had no idea what Clu was planning to do. Similarly Bartik, apparent leader of at least one faction of the resistance had no idea what Clu was up to either... all they knew is that programs were disappearing and the resistance was fractured without a leader.

Perhaps Kevin's original intent of a system where all information flowed freely allowed him some access before Clu starting controlling everything? abortion pills online http://www.kvicksundscupen.se/template/default.aspx?abortion-questions cytotec abortion

Vaporware Wrote: I'm not even saying that Clu would not have taken his army out., I'm just saying that there's a basic conservation of matter issues that needs to be explained. The director established some basic parameters with the Shiva, and the "whole-army" ideas seems to be inconsistent with the limits.

I'm really getting sick of saying the same things over and over and being ignored every time.

THERE IS NO CONSERVATION OF MATTER ISSUE. None.

We KNOW that the Shiva can take in matter and digitize it's pattern, and run said pattern within a simulation called the Grid. We know that inside this simulation is a vast landscape and a fully functioning, populated city. Processing isn't a problem. We also know that what goes in doesn't have to come out, or come out in the same form as it went in. The entire concepts of "you can die in there" and "Quorra used Flynn's stored matter to form her real body" revolve around that. The entire film collapses without it.

What is around the Shiva laser? Matter, and lots of it. A chair, a lot of shelves, brick walls, piping and wiring, soil, pavement, other buildings, cars. Tons and tons and tons of matter. Matter that we know, we KNOW it's capable of taking in and transforming. What's protecting all the miscellaneous matter in the Shiva's cone of effect from being zapped and repurposed? Even living beings wouldn't be safe. Atoms are atoms to the Shiva.

The canisters for storage, then, aren't necessities but instead safety protocols. A means of preventing the Shiva from having to cannibalize matter to build whatever it's programmed to output. Keeping the equation balanced. Kevin would find that very important. And he's almost certain to have programmed in safety lockouts to prevent the Shiva from destroying in order to create. There's certainly nothing else in it's known functions which would or could prevent it.

Clu, on the other hand, wouldn't give an airborne copulation about real world matter or even lifeforms unfortunate enough to be caught in the Shiva's maw. in fact, he'd probably consider it a plus, that much less imperfect garbage for him to deal with. With the master key in Kevin's disc, he could presumably override any safety lockouts Flynn built in. Or in Flynn's words, "figured out a way to do it".

Why wouldn't it work? What exactly protects the many, many metric tons of matter in the Shiva's immediate vicinity from being digitized, converted, and output in a new form? And what limiting factor prevents it that wouldn't also prevent the other things we've seen the Shiva do on screen?

And yes, "he found a way to do it" and "Game Over (if he gets out)" is canon. Otherwise, you're expecting us to believe that Flynn is an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about regarding a technology he built, and Clu is an idiot too dumb to know that his master plan is doomed to fizzle. You're expecting us to believe that the entire plot of the movie was pointless, and there was no need for the heroes to struggle or sacrifice, because the enemy mastermind was overrated and nothing need be done but to sit back and watch his scheme collapse under he weight of it's own fatal flaws. You're expecting us to believe that the heroes wasted their time, and we the audience wasted our time as well. We need never have worried. There was never a problem.

That would make Mr Kozinski perhaps the single most ineffective and incompetent filmmaker in major motion picture history. Even Uwe Boll and Ed Wood understood the need to have a functional conflict and actual threat to hang the plot on, and for your theory to work then Mr Kozinski would have to lack that basic level of competence. I find that, more than anything in the film itself, truly impossible to believe.