Davetron I do agree with you about copy protection to a point that it should be there for proprietary reasons for gaming. And I don't dis agree with you on that point at all. It has been like that on almost every software package that I know of since the good old DOS days when the fastest thing you could use was an 8088 processor and only 640k of ram were the norm at that time.

On the otherside that I see it here and since I use other software that may not be a standard to piracy. And that it runs under the GPL of distributing source code or contributing to applications that you are using to make things better from a users end. What about making them under the GPL where open source is provided along side of it and make it an option to decrease the amount of piracy that there is already at hand. Provided you have compilers and the what nots to make that application better in the long run. I know you cannot eliminate 100% of piracy at all. But I am sure you can given the options of working or combining the two together you could decrease it somewhat. BUt this is just an idea of what I am bringing up here.

Even with the case of Tron 2.0 which you and the others had made a valiant effort to make a great game. I am sure if at the time of press, distributing the source code for it for those who want to make the game better under what ever operating system they are using. Could still buy the coding along with the original package and still had a great game in hand and probably would still be very active.

DaveTRON Wrote:Having worked on the front lines of copy supression at Activision and Disney gigs, I can say this. I watched a great game, TRON 2.0, DIE on the shelf because of piracy. 24 hours after I said GO to the Gold Master it was on the streets illegally. There were more people playing the multiplayer game than had actually bought copies at one point early on. As I recall we figured 1 in 4 was a legit copy. People can complain about Copy Supression software all they want, but the simple fact is that because of theft by players, copy supression became a requirement. People have found a way to rationalize stealing, and companies have to fight back. The choice was not the best thing for the industry, but it was probably the only real option. Stealing creates Copy Supression. Simple as that. There is no going back now. Gamers brought it on themselves.

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Kia, from what I understand there is no rookit, even though the registry files that are installed by SecuROM are flagged by rootkitrevealer as possibly being the signs of a rootkit.

Just do yourself a favor and go get a copy of the game and have fun; I did and I am!

PC > any console.

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Like Kia said, the copy protection on Tron 2.0 was reasonable. It prevented you from copying the CDs easily, and did a CD check. I don't think anyone would have had a valid reason or excuse to complain about it.

But the copy protection on Bioshock is unreasonable. A one time activation online and a DVD check would be fine. But keeping track of installs and uninstalls, and preventing programs from running, is going overboard.

MutoidMan Wrote:Kia, from what I understand there is no rookit, even though the registry files that are installed by SecuROM are flagged by rootkitrevealer as possibly being the signs of a rootkit.

This latest version of SecuROM may not strictly fit the definition of a rootkit. But it at least has certain characteristics of it. Namely, installing silently in the background, hiding itself, and being extremely difficult to remove.

The PimpDragon Wrote:All of this crap is why I'm a console gamer!

I'm not going to get into the debate as to which platform is better. But I will say this.

When PC gaming is dead (I don't think it will actually happen, but the industry sure seems to be pushing hard for it), then the publishers will have finally won control over everything you see and do when you play games.

Enjoy the day when you have no choice any more. Where the manufacturers nickel and dime you to death for downloadable game content that you were previously able to get for free, where they can block and censor browsing to whichever sites they choose, and where they will eventually lock the game you bought to your particular console so you can't sell, lend, or trade your games. (You think it's not coming? Sony already wanted to do this with the PS3, but backed off for now.)

And what are you going to do then? You have absolutely no control over your console's system level functions. Sony and Microsoft can do whatever they want. Microsoft has already been "bricking" 360s when they suspect you're using a mod chip, and your 360 becomes permanently banned from Live.

Sorry, but you're not safe on a console either. It's time for consumers to stand up for their rights, and not roll over and take it. Do there need to be anti-piracy measures in place? Of course. But the level of control that the publishers and manufacturers are trying to exert lately, is becoming a bit Orwellian.

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lurkinghorror Wrote:But when the games you are playing are owned by the publishers, isn't having control over what you see in their game and do with their game their right?

There's no right or wrong answer to that. But in my personal opinion, I don't agree.

If it wasn't for people modding their games, we would have never had games like Counterstrike, Garry's Mod, Team Fortress, and there are plenty more examples.

It also means the mod I'm currently working on for Tron 2.0, along with my fellow team members, could not exist.

In a hypothetical world where PC gaming dies, PC's will continue to exist. Therefore if you want to create, play and even distribute your own games, you can. I've been dissatisfied by the "death" of text adventures for years. So I made my own. We might lose the ability to customize a developers game, but we will always have the right to create our own from scratch. That's the only freedom we are entitled.

Why can't people just play new games made by the major game publishers? Why would they have to create them? Why should they be punished for the platform they choose? That's just silly. Because some people are dirty, filthy pirates, let's make everyone suffer!

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TronFAQ Wrote: There's no right or wrong answer to that. But in my personal opinion, I don't agree.

I understand. But it's also important to remember that it IS their legal right to control how their product is viewed. I think it's UNWISE to lock out gamers... but it's their choice to make.

TronFAQ Wrote:If it wasn't for people modding their games, we would have never had games like Counterstrike, Garry's Mod, Team Fortress, and there are plenty more examples.

Sure. But that doesn't alter the fact that they're within their rights to release the material as they see fit.

TronFAQ Wrote:It also means the mod I'm currently working on for Tron 2.0, along with my fellow team members, could not exist.

Sure.

TronFAQ Wrote:Why can't people just play new games made by the major game publishers? Why would they have to create them? Why should they be punished for the platform they choose? That's just silly. Because some people are dirty, filthy pirates, let's make everyone suffer!

If you want to play the game released by the publisher, you can. But if you want to alter the game as you see fit, they have a right to stop you. It's their product, their money and their business.

Let's apply it to other mediums. Should we be mad at the producer of a film if he doesn't release his film with a separate audio track so that the film can be re-edited into fan edits? Or the comic book creator for not releasing the art and lettering files separately so they can be rescripted? Do these people have an obligation to release their work in the manner a percentage of fans want?

Kia I applaud you you hit on one of the key things that sometime people who do not know about this. And those are Modders. I know we have here a couple of Tron modders and modders for some other games. As well as people like myself who like to mod source code for games. I have not done so lately as for any new games since most of my systems are already past their prime under gaming for windows. But still very workable under the linux environment. Epic is one of a couple that I know of that encourage this to make their games better than when they came out originally. Even when the game unreal tournament came out they brought it not only for the windows and mac environment. But also has it available for the linux environment. Now Tron could have been one of those games too that could have gone underneath this very easily. Even it they wertr to put a game like tron or any other game afterwards and release it under the GPL where you have the source code to work with there could be even more of an improvement of a game. And bring down the partly the illegal piracy.

KiaPurity Wrote:It's hard to say, really, but sometimes; in these cases, modding is done to fix/improve gameplay that was probably "broken" by a patch. Some of the games are no longer supported such as Tron 2.0... And there are some companies that actually encourage modders such as Epic Games that created the Unreal Tournament games.

Dave I have worked for companies that produce a product. General Motors is one of a few that I have worked for. Welding major components to the chassis to actually driving it onto the parking lot where it was to be picked up via train, or truck to be delivered to the dealerships. Or being shipped across the ocean. And I have seen many cars pass through that were special ordered for police units. Another place that I did work for is a place that made Point of sales software specifically for companies that wanted a point of sales. And even that was very modular in design to work around for the company in question because that company has specific needs for a point of sales.

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Compucore Wroteave I have worked for companies that produce a product. General Motors is one of a few that I have worked for. Welding major components to the chassis to actually driving it onto the parking lot where it was to be picked up via train, or truck to be delivered to the dealerships. Or being shipped across the ocean. And I have seen many cars pass through that were special ordered for police units. Another place that I did work for is a place that made Point of sales software specifically for companies that wanted a point of sales. And even that was very modular in design to work around for the company in question because that company has specific needs for a point of sales. Karl

Yes, but did you EVER see any of them totally give away their tech to the consumer to do with as they please? No. It happens in limited cases where a commercial product is involved.on line abortion pill misoprostol dose abortion medical abortion pill online

lurkinghorror Wrote:If you want to play the game released by the publisher, you can. But if you want to alter the game as you see fit, they have a right to stop you. It's their product, their money and their business.

You're right. But except in certain instances, I have yet to see game companies shut down mod projects on a large scale. And when they do, it's usually because the modders are not building on top of an existing product, which would keep the IP the modders are working with tied to the existing game. (e.g. Creating new missions for System Shock 2 is okay, but creating a remake of System Shock 2 in a different game engine has caused EA to issue cease-and-desist orders.)

Let's apply it to other mediums. Should we be mad at the producer of a film if he doesn't release his film with a separate audio track so that the film can be re-edited into fan edits? Or the comic book creator for not releasing the art and lettering files separately so they can be rescripted? Do these people have an obligation to release their work in the manner a percentage of fans want?

The difference between games and other mediums, is that games are interactive and the others are passive forms of entertainment. In games, the players actually take some ownership. In the sense that, it becomes a personal experience when they play. The outcome of the game depends on how they play. This leads to a sense of wanting to put their own personal stamp on the game itself, as a whole. Which is undoubtedly why modding has become so popular. A chance to take a game universe and personalize it, to have the game play the way you like it to.

Also, games have a lot more technical glitches than, say, film. It's much easier for a film director to achieve his vision exactly the way he intended it, than a game programming team. Later down the line, problems with the game can be discovered. Unintended glitches that the game programmers didn't forsee. Then what? If the fans have an opportunity to fix problems, should they take it? So that everyone can benefit?

Finally, just like there are fan mods, there are also fan films, fiction, you name it. Should they also cease, because the creators of an entertainment property don't like it? In fact, can they do anything about it? Sometimes, yes. If those people are selling their fan creations, based on the IPs, for money. But otherwise, what are the entertainment companies going to do?

And it's not like it's easy to ask permission of the IP holders, if they would mind if you did a fan creation. It would be nice if the fans asked permission first, sure. But we all know that the majority of the IP owners will not give their fans the time of day. So they will never find out one way or the other, if the owners mind.

So should the fans then hold off? "Oh dear, I wasn't able to get permission from the property owner. Guess I shouldn't do it then." If that was the case, then a lot of interesting and fun creations with a new take on an existing property, would not exist. As long as no money is involved, I would say fan works are generally harmless, and in fact benefit the property owners.

If, for example, the game companies were smart . . . they would post a "modding policy" page on their web sites, so that fans could find out exactly where they stand. But if a game company puts out editing tools for one of their games? That's it. They're encouraging modding right there.

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