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rimwall Wrote:in the disc wars where jarvis was making a report to clu - he mentions the INITIATIVE "rectifier on schedule where INITIATIVE should be operational within 12 cycles" 12 cycles is about 10.9 years grid time

Right, I thought a cycle WAS equivalent to a Grid "year."

rimwall Wrote:flynn mentions that one millicycle is 8 hours so one cycle is 1000 millicycles = 8000 hours = 333.33 days

Didn't we have the debate about whether he said MILLIcycle or MICROcycle? Can't remember which we decided on, though. And I think there was also the debate about whether that meant 8 hours "real time" or "Grid time."

rimwall Wrote:why didn't clu have guards watching the sky for the opening of the portal?

Exactly. How could you not notice the portal opened? I mean, it seemed it was pretty visible in the sky. Oh look, somebody must be here, presumably a User, duh. If you're in a room and the door opens and closes, you can be pretty certain somebody probably came in. Or DID Clu know and was simply waiting for Sam (or whoever) to show up because he knew he had to eventually if he was in the Grid?

And I suppose if Clu knew the Recognizer was picking up new programs for the Games, it is possible that at first he did not necessarily automatically associate "Unknown" with being a User instead of just an unknown program (after all, we don't know if having an "unknown" program is common or if this is a one-off event when it comes to Sam. I could argue for the former, since no one seems to find the appearance of an "unknown" program to be an anomaly--for if they did, surely they'd investigate what was going on instead of just tossing him into the Games as if he's just another everyday occurrence).

And, if Clu was truly expecting Alan and not Sam, then if he saw "unknown" wasn't Alan, he might not expect that "Unknown" was indeed a User. (ever been looking for something on your desk and if you expect it to look a certain way, you might look right past it if it doesn't look that way because your eyes/brain are scanning for that certain feature you expect it to have, or been doing a word search puzzle and doing a quick scan; you know the word you're looking for starts with Y so your eyes are merely scanning for Ys and not distinguishing what anything else is? Same thing here; if he is expecting to see Alan and Alan only, then it may not occur to him to look for anyone else).

Or if he did not expect Sam to get picked up by a Recognizer at all (after all, does the Recognizer just happen to come upon him and then picks him up, or does it see him arrive and then come after him specifically?) then he might not expect to come upon him that way.

Seriously, you don't need anybody "watching" the sky. Humans look up at the sky all the time, and we'd definitely notice something new and weird. I don't see why programs wouldn't look up too.

rimwall Wrote:its odd tho that one of the sirens commented sam was different- it shows programs CAN DISCERN what is DIFFERENT from them.

I too figured it was pretty easily explained just by the fact that he was acting differently than you might expect from a program.

ShadowDragon1 Wrote:3) With the exception of some Programs having their own intuition, most Programs need to see something out of the ordinary to determine if someone's a User. Flynn didn't include "detect Users" as a universal routine. Short-sighted of Flynn, perhaps. He might not of wanted to add that. He didn't want Programs going around worshiping every User that came to visit The Grid, once Flynn unveiled to those he wanted to unveil it to.

Well, in the Grid, they wouldn't need to, right? Flynn was the only user there, and presumably everyone probably knew him. If he did plan to introduce the Grid to the whole world some day, it may well have not been that exact Grid; that may've simply been the working and experimental copy, kind of like you might create a quarantined system for testing that isn't hooked up to the internet or your main system, to make sure that anything you experiment with doesn't get into the final version you're creating in case it gets really screwed up (or, if you like, to make it more simple, when you're making a document or a spreadsheet or something, and you want to make major formatting changes but in case it goes wrong or you don't like it and you don't feel like trying to fix it back to the original, you make a copy of your document and experiment there before you mess around with your "critical" version. Or is it just me that does that?) and perhaps he could've added "user detection" into programs later before the Grid was made public. (Yes, long sentence is long. But you get the idea.)



But what if Clu didn't need Sam (or Alan, or whoever he expected) alive? I mean, if his aim was merely to get the portal opened, then Sam (Alan, yada yada, assume the two are interchangeable in this paragraph without me needing to keep typing it) was unnecessary. In fact, you might say he was a liability if Clu was thinking Sam would flush out Flynn. If Sam was alive, Flynn might come out to rescue. If Sam was dead, Flynn might come out to avenge. Either way he gets Flynn. But what he may not want is for Flynn and Sam to team up against him...and if Alan, the stakes may be even higher--what if Rinzler catches sight of his User?? (I mean, Clu couldn't know that Rinzler would change back upon seeing Flynn. However, I daresay it would be wise, and would almost make sense, to wonder what kind of impact it would have on him and on any stirrings of Tron that may be left inside, to see his User, considering how Tron felt about his User)

voltes5 Wrote: rimwall Wrote:clu choosing to IGNORE the IMPORTANCE of the appearance of the bright light portal- means clu CHOOSING to IGNORE ONE of the possible INDICATORS of user presence on the grid. I understand that you are very frustrated about CLU not being aware of the extremely bright Portal being open in their system. Like I commented, I share your frustrations. However, I will join ShadowDragon1's "wow" comment because at this point, you're just being argumentative for argument's sake. CLU did NOT CHOOSE to IGNORE the appearance of the bright light portal. Why would he? It's very important to him. It's pretty obvious that no one knew about Sam even though he was given an Identity Disc. During the Disc Wars, he was saved in the system as "Unknown." Even Jarvis couldn't figure out who he was. These few evidence just prove that none of them were aware of the Portal's existence. On that basis alone, you cannot argue that CLU "chooses to ignore" the Portal. Obviously, if he had known, there would have been a wild manhunt for this rogue user. rimwall Wrote:means clu choosing to ignore the dangers of the user being picked for disc games. CLU is the "aggressive" player. And if the user (regardless of who he was, including Sam or Alan) gets put in the Disc Battle and dies, do you think it will even matter to CLU? The guy will just use that user's death as a message to the cowardly Kevin hiding in the Outlands. And, yes, CLU wanting to kill Sam in The Grid was deliberate. He wanted to kill Sam in front of all Kevin's creation so that the message will be sent to Kevin that he had murdered his only son. Think about it? If you were the dad and you overheard that your child was killed, what would be your first instinct? Exactly. Remember CLU's comment to Jarvis? "It wasn't meant for them." CLU is literally out for blood as Jarvis' whole speech pimping CLU's godlike greatness was strictly for Sam. rimwall Wrote:means clu choosing to IGNORE the RISK of having the user PREMATURELY die in disc games. As I've said, however the accidental user dies, it doesn't matter. The whole objective is to get Kevin Flynn's Disc. Remember what Quorra said? "CLU will stop at nothing to obtain his Disc"... That's just who CLU is. rimwall Wrote:does it REALLY make sense to acknowledge that the user is important to clu's plan- but the user is NOT important enough to protect from premature death in the disc games? You word it that way then you're right, but based on the story of the film, that does not make sense. What makes sense is that any user that comes in becomes "bait" to bring Kevin out from hiding. Whether the user dies or not does not matter just as long as Kevin comes out to CLU. In fact, I'd imagine that he'd rather much prefer an angry and vengeful Kevin since CLU has become so bloodthirsty... rimwall Wrote:does it make sense to think that clu would CHOOSE TO NOT know when the portal opens- when the alternative is to KNOW when it opens? And we come full circle. No, CLU did not deliberately "choose to not" know when the portal opens. That's just being silly. It's a problem with the script (since the film shows everyone else being able to see the Portal), but that's just about it. Give me 1 movie that doesn't have a problem with story logic and I'll give you 1 billion dollars.

----
It's pretty obvious that no one knew about Sam even though he was given an Identity Disc. During the Disc Wars, he was saved in the system as "Unknown." Even Jarvis couldn't figure out who he was.
----

i didn't see any "saving in the system as unknown"
kindly describe the scene.

also being saved as an unknown is a good criteria
for identifying users.

----
CLU did NOT CHOOSE to IGNORE the appearance of the bright light portal. Why would he? It's very important to him.

It's pretty obvious that no one knew about Sam even though he was given an Identity Disc. During the Disc Wars, he was saved in the system as "Unknown." Even Jarvis couldn't figure out who he was. These few evidence just prove that none of them were aware of the Portal's existence.
----

kindly clarify - what do you mean by the light portal
being important to clu
and none of them were aware of the portal's existence.

do you mean the portal was important to clu but he did not know it was open?

-----
CLU is the "aggressive" player. And if the user (regardless of who he was, including Sam or Alan) gets put in the Disc Battle and dies, do you think it will even matter to CLU? The guy will just use that user's death as a message to the cowardly Kevin hiding in the Outlands. And, yes, CLU wanting to kill Sam in The Grid was deliberate. He wanted to kill Sam in front of all Kevin's creation so that the message will be sent to Kevin that he had murdered his only son. Think about it? If you were the dad and you overheard that your child was killed, what would be your first instinct? Exactly.
-----

that's odd -the stakes for flynn are much higher - because
by flynns reconing, clu plans to cure OUR imperfect world

if youre saying sams death will pull kevin out of hiding-
sure but kevin will destroy his disk first.

does that sound like a win for clu?

----
He wanted to kill Sam in front of all Kevin's creation so that the message will be sent to Kevin that he had murdered his only son. Think about it? If you were the dad and you overheard that your child was killed, what would be your first instinct? Exactly.
----

this is just for my future reference, but still very important to me:

are you saying that clu has an UNDERSTANDING of familial
feelings and relations?

(by my understanding there is no concept of family on the grid)

just trying to clarify the family thing- coz i'm reading other comments
saying clu can't plan 3 steps ahead

and now you're saying clu can conceptualize
abstract concepts (family) that are non-existent on the grid

just for my reference of course.

------
As I've said, however the accidental user dies, it doesn't matter. The whole objective is to get Kevin Flynn's Disc. Remember what Quorra said? "CLU will stop at nothing to obtain his Disc"... That's just who CLU is.
------

i thought the objective is to get flynn's disk
without pushing flynn to the decision of destroying
his disc and deciding re-integration?

unless of course you're saying clu wants (on some level)
to be re-integrated. which puts parts of the story
into a more preferable light for me.


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ShadowDragon1 Wrote:

Condescending cat is condescending?

ShadowDragon1 Wrote:no, more like.. "why is this still dragging on over and over" implied face palm cat.

it's still going on because people still want to post
comments and perspectives.

just like you answering my posts even after you say
our conversation is over.

i certainly hope you're NOT trying to attempt to
STIFLE comments with your witty pictures

by my understanding a discussion group of movies
is supposed to be interpretative with varying
perspectives

but if you must entertain the need to stifle my comments
a "cat got my tongue" picture would be perfect.

i'd post one -but i dont know how to post pics.



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rimwall Wrote:i didn't see any "saving in the system as unknown" kindly describe the scene. also being saved as an unknown is a good criteria for identifying users.

My bad with the "wording" of my thoughts... The film did not show how Sam's "user profile" was saved in the system. That scene with the Sirens is pretty much how you and I would create a "new file" -- such as on a spreadsheet document or even a small script file (batch file) to provide ease on working with a particular application (such as Photoshop). Sam Flynn is basically created as a "new file" of sorts. The Identity Disc "saves" him as part of another program with a "function" in The Grid. At that moment, he's saved as a "combatant/player" in the Disc Battle.

You have a good point. Being an "unknown" does make a good criteria for identifying users. But Sam is the VERY FIRST "unknown" that had ever entered The Grid. There is no point of reference for CLU's system to interpret/decompile Sam Flynn. You can then ask, "How about Kevin Flynn's Disc"? That does not count as Kevin was the creator of the world, and being the "master key," such details/info within the Disc is for Kevin's eyes only -- hence, CLU's intense desire to steal that Disc -- no matter the cost.

rimwall Wrote:kindly clarify - what do you mean by the light portal being important to clu and none of them were aware of the portal's existence. do you mean the portal was important to clu but he did not know it was open?

Yes. As I've said a couple of times, this is a problem with the screenplay. The Portal was obviously visible to everybody, yet no one seemed to have noticed it.

rimwall Wrote:that's odd -the stakes for flynn are much higher - because by flynns reconing, clu plans to cure OUR imperfect world if youre saying sams death will pull kevin out of hiding- sure but kevin will destroy his disk first. does that sound like a win for clu?

No, that does not sound like a win for CLU. CLU's main priority is to create a perfect system in The Grid. He accomplishes it. However, even though he was programmed as such, he started to "evolve" like his maker. As Kevin was from the real world and decided to create a new system in a computer world, CLU is the same thing, except the situations are reversed. This is why Kevin tells Sam that CLU "is me."

And if CLU did successfully kill Sam, Kevin could do a number of possibilities: avenge his son, reintegrate with CLU, destroy his Disc, or destroy The Grid. At that point, we're just doing fan-fiction. The film was about Sam Flynn about to get killed by CLU, but was saved by another important character in the film: Quorra.

rimwall Wrote:this is just for my future reference, but still very important to me: are you saying that clu has an UNDERSTANDING of familial feelings and relations? (by my understanding there is no concept of family on the grid) just trying to clarify the family thing- coz i'm reading other comments saying clu can't plan 3 steps ahead and now you're saying clu can conceptualize abstract concepts (family) that are non-existent on the grid just for my reference of course.

No. CLU does NOT have any understanding of familial feelings and relations. My apologies if you interpreted my previous response as such. If he did, why did he kill Jarvis even though he's the most loyal supporter he has? He doesn't care because Jarvis was just "something" who screwed up with Kevin's Disc.

Let me just repeat it in one sentence:

CLU is an aggressive program who will stop at nothing to obtain Kevin Flynn's Disc (such as killing ANYBODY -- it doesn't matter who he/she/it is) so that he can continue his programmed function to create "The Perfect System" in both the computer and real world.

rimwall Wrote:i thought the objective is to get flynn's disk without pushing flynn to the decision of destroying his disc and deciding re-integration? unless of course you're saying clu wants (on some level) to be re-integrated. which puts parts of the story into a more preferable light for me.

Let me reiterate what I said. The objective is to get Flynn's Disc regardless of how logical or illogical CLU's strategies are in obtaining it. He is a program with a mission: "to create a perfect system." That mission has evolved into something bigger because the system is THE WHOLE WORLD and not just The Grid. So CLU, being a very precise program, will DO ANYTHING -- I repeat -- ANYTHING to get Flynn's Disc -- and YES, even doing COMPLETELY rash and illogical things, such as killing Sam, because he knows that Kevin Flynn will REACT either way and that's pretty much all CLU can expect to happen. That's a better situation rather than Kevin continues to hide in the Outlands.

It's rash and illogical to you and me because we are human beings with feelings. CLU does not have such human emotions so killing any user that comes in The Grid (whether accidental or not) ends up just becoming a "cause" that could hopefully fish Kevin Flynn out from hiding. That is all.

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And this is my gift for rimwall... Just have fun with the movie, man!

voltes5 Wrote:Since the Portal can be seen from anywhere, why didn't Kevin Flynn see it? I mean, he was only just meditating and staring at The Grid when we first meet him. Is he in a complete trancelike (or TRONslike) state to overlook that shiny beacon RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM? Sam even points at it from Kevin's safehouse.

Oh, damn. I didn't even think of THAT. Now that's gonna bug me too.

IsoLine Wrote: Kat Wrote: voltes5 Wrote:Since the Portal can be seen from anywhere, why didn't Kevin Flynn see it? I mean, he was only just meditating and staring at The Grid when we first meet him. Is he in a complete trancelike (or TRONslike) state to overlook that shiny beacon RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM? Sam even points at it from Kevin's safehouse. Oh, damn. I didn't even think of THAT. Now that's gonna bug me too. Well, as I think we are forgetting the whole issue with Sam being in the grid versus how his father got there. Remember when Sam was first digitized, he was NOTat the portal....He was in a grid version of Flynn's arcade, in downtown TRON City. Therefore the actual portal wouldn't necessarily change to denote Sam's presence in the system. Now the question becomes (and it actually was already brought up)....Why did Sam appear in TRON city instead of the Portal? Why are there two entry points into the grid and who or what created the entry point in the copy of Flynn's in TRON city?

nice question.

if i remember correctly the same thing happened in the first movie where
flynn's entry point and exit point occur in two different places.

also if i remember correctly from the book novelization
http://www.flickr.com/photos/paxtonholley/2353908773/
flynn's prolonged digitizing kaleidoscope scene was described
from flynn's perspective- that he FELT like being switched
instantaneouly from one location to the next until reaching
the entry point

i supposed its like a series of interconnected teleportation platforms
(the teleportation platform was in the scene where
flynn ram and tron were transported from their holding
area to the game grid)

makes you wonder.
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LWSrocks Wrote:I know, but you're being extremely argumentative about it. There's a way to go about "bouncing" ideas, where instead of saying "Well NO! That's impossible!" (which is what you've been doing, as well as shouting) you say "Hmm, that's an interesting perspective, however, it doesn't work because *instert explanation here*" And you do keep bringing up the exact same point, over and over again, which gives us the impression that you're not looking for ideas, you're looking for the stone cold truth, which none of us can give to you however you keep bringing it up. There is a difference between arguing and debating, and you claim to wish to debate however you argue. The trick to mastering this is to learn the difference. In debating, you come up with ideas for explanations on how things went down, you examine others' ideas, and you build upon them. You do so in a polite, non-argumentative manner. However, in arguing, you shout and yell and be rude but we're NOT HERE to argue. We're here to debate. Arguing is for personal matters, and if you have personal matters to work out with somebody on the board you do so through a private message, not in public on the forums. And also, in debating, you BUILD upon others ideas, you don't shoot them down or blow them out of the water. If somebody has an idea that has a hole in it, you fill it, you don't rudely point it out. If there's no way to fill it, then politely bring up another idea. If the person with the faulty explanation brings theirs up again, then you do have the right to POLITELY point out the hole. It's a learning process, and with experience you'll be a master of the debate.

i will try to follow your advice.

thanks does writing in boldface indicate shouting?
i need a way to emphasize one word above the rest
and double quotes simply wont do.

-----
"Hmm, that's an interesting perspective, however, it doesn't work because *instert explanation here*"
-----

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