Aerial_Zero
User
Posts: 265 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Thursday, April, 14, 2011 1:22 PM
scifichicx Wrote:I think they made the right choice with Quorra being a female character and Sam being male. Sam does need saving- not because of gender but because he is the lost, abandoned child. Quorra is the savior and helper, not because of her gender, but because she has been studying under the supervision of the user for so many cycles. Choosing Quorra as a female and Sam as a male helps the audience see them as the people they would be in response to the situations they have lived through. If Sam was "Samantha" and stumbled out the battle grid thanks to "Quentin" in the same way, people would groan and say it's because it's a woman, etc.
In truth their strengths and weaknesses have everything to do with personality, and nothing to do with gender. I think the best way to show that it has nothing to do with gender is to go against the stereotypes. I think Quorra could be a dude and Sam could be a girl 100% as written and it would be the same story. The problem comes from the audiences' perception of the characters and automatically shrugging off any issue as a gendered thing instead of a trait that that character would obviously have after living through what Sam and Quorra have lived through.
People harp on the romance. What romance? They are bros, for sure, but I didn't see any I love yous. Yeah, Sam gives Quorra that sweet look when he's talking about the sun, but that is easily interpreted as something other than a pickup line. It is certainly hinted at for anyone who would like to see it, but honestly I think that ship sails by the end of the film because, well, she's now made up of Kevin!Particles. I wouldn't want to hook up with a girl that was materialized out of my dad.
Quorra is wonderful because she gets to be Kevin's gift to Sam. Kevin wasn't there to raise his son, but he did mentor Quorra. She can take those cycles of companionship and knowledge and pass them on to Sam. She is more like his sister in so many ways and that is Kevin giving Sam and Quorra a chance at the family both were robbed of in different ways. I like that Quorra is this new hope for Sam and it has nothing to do with gender or romance, but everything to do with family.
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I love this topic, I'm surprised I didn't put more thought to it before (seeing as I minored in Gender Studies and this would have been a way better thesis to have written  )
I definitely liked how they more or less intermingled the [traditional] gender roles for this movie where it's not the girl being rescued and the guy being overly macho. That being said they did not overdo it either with Quorra being "butch" and Sam being a sissy. (I just have to say right here it's funny seeing my real name being tossed around a forum [Samantha] hehe ) The way they did it you are less focused on gender and more immersed in the story.
I also liked how they didn't make any [perceived] romance between Quorra & Sam blatent and/or obvious. It was more about two kindred spirits both believing in something greater than themselves and striving for it. She is portrayed as innocent but strong, fully capable of holding her own. Granted she was in tight clothing but, hey, it's Tronverse... everyone basically wears skin tight clothing, even the "men". The only point in the film where it seems like Quorra is more of a "sex object" is the scene at the end where Clu 2.0 brushes her hair away from her face while mentioning plans. However, again, this is up for debate just like the Sam "relationship" thing as to what he meant. Most likely (esp. since it's Disney we are talking about) he wanted to re-purpose her to be used as an ultimate weapon kind of thing vs being a sexual thing.
Another interesting thought I had while watching the movie in IMAX for the 1,000,000 time, was how even though programs weren't "real people", that they still referred to themselves as "him/her". Somehow the basic principals of gender and gender roles were still encoded onto the programs and in their social structure. Whether or not that was intentional is another issue. The End of Line Club scene also sparks another question about as to if programs have any type of sexual contact with each other, and if so how that came to be (think of the "girl" programs sitting in the Black Sentry's laps, with both of them obviously enjoying themselves). With the programs it may be more of a contact thing, that just being in direct physical contact with another program is pleasing. My hubby and I always refer to that as "interfacing" LoL That by direct physical contact two programs can "interface" and share a little bit of each other with the other program creating a pleasing and unified experience. I am sure this was not their intention but it is something interesting to think and talk about
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End of Line.
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AzureDawn
User
Posts: 107 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Thursday, April, 14, 2011 1:40 PM
| ShadowSpark Wrote:Well, 1989 Flynn and Clu1 have no claims on them. Neither do Anon or Gibson(Tron Evolution), or Jet(Tron 2.0)(unless you count Mercury, of course). |
This is a very interesting thread! Can I be the the first to partake of 1989Flynn? (Im totally willing to share though) I would also like to request a copy of Clu 2.0
1989Flynn basically = Clu 2.0
Thanks ladies, and I am enjoying this new conversation (we cant talk about the men all the time, heh).
| (we know Disney is never going to feature any sort of non-hetero relationship, though I would've loved if Flynn had said "So, wife...girlfriend...?" and Sam had answered, "Bob. We've been together for about five years now and he's a really great guy, you'd love him..." lol) |
Even though I am a hetero-female, I am still waiting to see something like this appear in a Disney film. Disney's idea of family has changed slightly over the years now allowing, for example, divorced and/or single parent families appear on their productions. That would have been hilarious if Sam had said that, and I can see Quorra cracking up over that one. Speaking of, there were certain parts in the film (namely Castor) that definitely had some slightly homosexual undertones. Maybe its their first step in testing the waters!
I will post some more thoughts when Im not so tired 
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 CLU3_Azure_sigpic by AzureDawn2, on Flickr
{{Done by the awesome FlynnOne, thank you! :-) }}
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elleldee
User
Posts: 156 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Thursday, April, 14, 2011 2:34 PM
Well, as for the parents thing, there's almost always been a missing parent. Most movies have at least one absent or dies-in-movie parent
Lion King--dad dies
Cinderella--both die
Aladdin--Al's parents both gone (though dad comes back in the King of Thieves), Jasmine's mom absent, presumably dead, as she's mentioned
Snow White--only a stepmother (I think? I don't remember well, to be honest)
Princess and the Frog--dad gone
Toy story--Andy's dad never shown
Bambi, Dumbo, Aristocats, Finding Nemo, Pete's Dragon (I think?), Beauty and the Beast, The Black Cauldron, Pocahontas, Mighty Joe Young, Lilo and Stitch, even National Treasure (Until the second movie) and he's an adult!
Both parents there: 101 Dalmations, Sleeping Beauty, Tangled, Mulan, Peter Pan (for the darlings, at least)
As for non-hetero relationships, I personally don't want to see that in a Disney movie. It's a huge moral issue, and I don't really movies promoting homosexual relationships. That being said, I don't want slam-gay-people!!!! movies. That's just as bad. Homosexualpeople should not be hated or put down for that, but neither should it necessarily be promoted.
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Aerial_Zero
User
Posts: 265 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Thursday, April, 14, 2011 2:46 PM
| elleldee Wrote:As for non-hetero relationships, I personally don't want to see that in a Disney movie. It's a huge moral issue, and I don't really movies promoting homosexual relationships. That being said, I don't want slam-gay-people!!!! movies. That's just as bad. Homosexualpeople should not be hated or put down for that, but neither should it necessarily be promoted. |
There is a growing number of non-straight couples in the world (a lot more open now that in the past) and I don't see why that couldn't be reflected in films as well -- even Disney films. Of course, there is a tasteful and respectful way it can be done.  Just by a homosexual couple appearing in a Disney film doesn't mean Disney is promoting being homosexual by saying "Hey everyone let's be gay" or "being gay is superior to being straight". It would just be nice to see a slight variety (I think that was the original intent of the poster).
I guess I am just a very open minded and tolerant person to let everyone have their own ideas, ideals, and preferences. My clique in High School were outcasts because we weren't jocks or socialites. We were academic, arty, Role-playing nerds (gosh that sounds bad LoL) and I know how it feels to be on the outside and looked down upon. So, I try to not knock anyone and make anyone else feel bad for what they believe or want to do with their life Thankfully with being an adult out of HS, and having the internet it has helped bring a lot of folks including me out of my shell more and learn its okay to like what I like If someone doesn't agree with me or like what I like that is okay too
I'm not trying to start some kind of moral debate on homosexualism or anything so we can resume talking about the characters we like or Kat's cool discussion on gender in Legacy
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End of Line.
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ShadowSpark
User
Posts: 2,943 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Thursday, April, 14, 2011 5:12 PM
Okay, sci, Kat, Aerial, you three asked for the person who looks like Ram, so here you go:
I have no idea why it's stretched like that...
Is this the person you were talking about, sci?
AzureDawn Wrote:| ShadowSpark Wrote:Well, 1989 Flynn and Clu1 have no claims on them. Neither do Anon or Gibson(Tron Evolution), or Jet(Tron 2.0)(unless you count Mercury, of course). |
This is a very interesting thread! Can I be the the first to partake of 1989Flynn? (Im totally willing to share though) I would also like to request a copy of Clu 2.0
1989Flynn basically = Clu 2.0
|
Okay. * activates BCPXM, rezzes in copy of Clu2 and shoves him and 1989 Flynn at AzureDawn,* There you go. All components are functional.
On a different note, I like your avatar, Aerial.
{A very big thanks to FlynnOne for the pic! And to Wulfeous for sharpening the details!*huggles both*}
{Because people always seem to guess wrong, I'm saying it here: I'm female!!! And my name is Spark!!!}
Tron Lives!
Please click here to help my family out.
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Kat
User
Posts: 2,394 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Thursday, April, 14, 2011 9:20 PM
Aerial_Zero Wrote:scifichicx Wrote:I think they made the right choice with Quorra being a female character and Sam being male. Sam does need saving- not because of gender but because he is the lost, abandoned child. Quorra is the savior and helper, not because of her gender, but because she has been studying under the supervision of the user for so many cycles. Choosing Quorra as a female and Sam as a male helps the audience see them as the people they would be in response to the situations they have lived through. If Sam was "Samantha" and stumbled out the battle grid thanks to "Quentin" in the same way, people would groan and say it's because it's a woman, etc.
In truth their strengths and weaknesses have everything to do with personality, and nothing to do with gender. I think the best way to show that it has nothing to do with gender is to go against the stereotypes. I think Quorra could be a dude and Sam could be a girl 100% as written and it would be the same story. The problem comes from the audiences' perception of the characters and automatically shrugging off any issue as a gendered thing instead of a trait that that character would obviously have after living through what Sam and Quorra have lived through.
People harp on the romance. What romance? They are bros, for sure, but I didn't see any I love yous. Yeah, Sam gives Quorra that sweet look when he's talking about the sun, but that is easily interpreted as something other than a pickup line. It is certainly hinted at for anyone who would like to see it, but honestly I think that ship sails by the end of the film because, well, she's now made up of Kevin!Particles. I wouldn't want to hook up with a girl that was materialized out of my dad.
Quorra is wonderful because she gets to be Kevin's gift to Sam. Kevin wasn't there to raise his son, but he did mentor Quorra. She can take those cycles of companionship and knowledge and pass them on to Sam. She is more like his sister in so many ways and that is Kevin giving Sam and Quorra a chance at the family both were robbed of in different ways. I like that Quorra is this new hope for Sam and it has nothing to do with gender or romance, but everything to do with family.
|
I love this topic, I'm surprised I didn't put more thought to it before (seeing as I minored in Gender Studies and this would have been a way better thesis to have written  )
I definitely liked how they more or less intermingled the [traditional] gender roles for this movie where it's not the girl being rescued and the guy being overly macho. That being said they did not overdo it either with Quorra being "butch" and Sam being a sissy. (I just have to say right here it's funny seeing my real name being tossed around a forum [Samantha] hehe ) The way they did it you are less focused on gender and more immersed in the story.
I also liked how they didn't make any [perceived] romance between Quorra & Sam blatent and/or obvious. It was more about two kindred spirits both believing in something greater than themselves and striving for it. She is portrayed as innocent but strong, fully capable of holding her own. Granted she was in tight clothing but, hey, it's Tronverse... everyone basically wears skin tight clothing, even the "men". The only point in the film where it seems like Quorra is more of a "sex object" is the scene at the end where Clu 2.0 brushes her hair away from her face while mentioning plans. However, again, this is up for debate just like the Sam "relationship" thing as to what he meant. Most likely (esp. since it's Disney we are talking about) he wanted to re-purpose her to be used as an ultimate weapon kind of thing vs being a sexual thing.
Another interesting thought I had while watching the movie in IMAX for the 1,000,000 time, was how even though programs weren't "real people", that they still referred to themselves as "him/her". Somehow the basic principals of gender and gender roles were still encoded onto the programs and in their social structure. Whether or not that was intentional is another issue. The End of Line Club scene also sparks another question about as to if programs have any type of sexual contact with each other, and if so how that came to be (think of the "girl" programs sitting in the Black Sentry's laps, with both of them obviously enjoying themselves). With the programs it may be more of a contact thing, that just being in direct physical contact with another program is pleasing. My hubby and I always refer to that as "interfacing" LoL That by direct physical contact two programs can "interface" and share a little bit of each other with the other program creating a pleasing and unified experience. I am sure this was not their intention but it is something interesting to think and talk about
Just my two cents  |
If you read back a few pages, you'll see where I was talking about feminism and other gender roles in the Grid...as well as sexuality. (It's the first post at the top of page 17 of this thread.)
Sexuality has been discussed a few times here; some people think programs don't have sex, but most agree that at least on the T:L grid, there is some sense of sexuality, considering the scene in the EOL club that you mention. And some agreed with me that traditional sexual norms may not apply--after all, with no religious tradition to lend a specific set of "morals" and no procreation, why would there be a taboo against homosexuality? A couple of the characters in my fanfic are gay...no big deal made of it, just a mention, in the section where my OC meets several programs, of Andre and his significant other Mat in the same sentence that I mention a couple other programs in a hetero relationship. It's just a matter-of-fact thing, same way some programs are in multiracial relationships (actually, Andre is black and Mat's white, so there you go, and the other programs mentioned in the same sentence, one is MIddle Eastern or South Asian, and the other is white. Race shouldn't matter in the Grid either, since there AREN'T different countries for programs to originate in and it's just a matter of appearance).
(Some people also wonder if polyamory might be more common. I have not written that into my fanfic, in part because I'm not sure how to deal with it since I'm not that knowledgeable about it even though several of my friends are in polyamorous relationships, but it's certainly possible)
Aerial_Zero Wrote:| elleldee Wrote:As for non-hetero relationships, I personally don't want to see that in a Disney movie. It's a huge moral issue, and I don't really movies promoting homosexual relationships. That being said, I don't want slam-gay-people!!!! movies. That's just as bad. Homosexualpeople should not be hated or put down for that, but neither should it necessarily be promoted. |
There is a growing number of non-straight couples in the world (a lot more open now that in the past) and I don't see why that couldn't be reflected in films as well -- even Disney films. Of course, there is a tasteful and respectful way it can be done. Just by a homosexual couple appearing in a Disney film doesn't mean Disney is promoting being homosexual by saying "Hey everyone let's be gay" or "being gay is superior to being straight". It would just be nice to see a slight variety (I think that was the original intent of the poster).
I guess I am just a very open minded and tolerant person to let everyone have their own ideas, ideals, and preferences. My clique in High School were outcasts because we weren't jocks or socialites. We were academic, arty, Role-playing nerds (gosh that sounds bad LoL) and I know how it feels to be on the outside and looked down upon. So, I try to not knock anyone and make anyone else feel bad for what they believe or want to do with their life Thankfully with being an adult out of HS, and having the internet it has helped bring a lot of folks including me out of my shell more and learn its okay to like what I like If someone doesn't agree with me or like what I like that is okay too
I'm not trying to start some kind of moral debate on homosexualism or anything so we can resume talking about the characters we like or Kat's cool discussion on gender in Legacy
|
Precisely. Would having a black character mean Disney is "promoting" black people (we won't argue about how Walt Disney may've felt about that...)? Of course not. It just means it's an acknowledgement that there is such a thing as diversity in the world and everyone should be represented. Nobody's talking about a big Grid Gay Pride parade down the streets of Tron City, or a scene of Priscilla, Queen of the Outlands (OMG Hugo Weaving!). Just like sex/gender and race don't need to be mentioned, gay programs only need to ...be.
(Actually, to be honest with you, in this pic from the screencaps, I'm not really 100% of the gender of the dark-haired program sitting on the lap of the Black Guard on the left: http://www.homeofthenutty.com/movies/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=140&pid=152475#top_display_media)
What do you want? I'm busy.
Program, please!
Chaos.... good news.
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scifichicx
User
Posts: 67 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Thursday, April, 14, 2011 9:29 PM
ShadowSpark Wrote:Okay, sci, Kat, Aerial, you three asked for the person who looks like Ram, so here you go:
I have no idea why it's stretched like that...
Is this the person you were talking about, sci?
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Yeah, I think that's him. I'll try to snag a pic next time that hopefully won't end up all stretched out. :Pwhere to buy abortion pill abortion types buy abortion pill online
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Aerial_Zero
User
Posts: 265 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Friday, April, 15, 2011 11:21 AM
| ShadowSpark Wrote:On a different note, I like your avatar, Aerial. |
Thanks It is about the extent of my skill level changing the color of her lights in paint LoL I was tired of not having an Avatar and my hubby the artist is ever the procrastinator  Again, thanks for the compliment
Wow, that juggler does look like Ram *swoon* Good thing I didn't meet him Thanks for posting it for us! I hate it when you upload a pic and it gets stretched or distorted. Maybe next time the MCP wont mess with it
| Kat Wrote:Sexuality has been discussed a few times here; some people think programs don't have sex, but most agree that at least on the T:L grid, there is some sense of sexuality, considering the scene in the EOL club that you mention. And some agreed with me that traditional sexual norms may not apply--after all, with no religious tradition to lend a specific set of "morals" and no procreation, why would there be a taboo against homosexuality? .... Just like sex/gender and race don't need to be mentioned, gay programs only need to ...be. |
I totally agree with ya Nothing really should be an issue in the Grid as there, in theory, is no "higher power" telling them what they are doing is wrong. I had not thought about it before but polyamourous programs probably do exist as, again, there are no taboos in the Grid. Too bad our world isn't more like that
Ironically I found my old interpersonal communication textbook from college last night, and while I was flipping though it I came on a paragraph that reminded me of what we are talking about here (only applying it to a program vs a profession). Even mentioning that a certain program is gay, would thus imply that being gay is outside the "norm" and looked down upon in some way. The book used the example of a "gay athlete" or "gay doctor". You put it best, programs just need to *be*, no matter their preference in company, color, or beliefs. I like how you are treating it in your fanfic from your examples, like it's no big deal.
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End of Line.
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ShadowSpark
User
Posts: 2,943 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Friday, April, 15, 2011 5:40 PM
{A very big thanks to FlynnOne for the pic! And to Wulfeous for sharpening the details!*huggles both*}
{Because people always seem to guess wrong, I'm saying it here: I'm female!!! And my name is Spark!!!}
Tron Lives!
Please click here to help my family out.
|
scifichicx
User
Posts: 67 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Friday, April, 15, 2011 5:54 PM
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Aerial_Zero
User
Posts: 265 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Friday, April, 15, 2011 6:10 PM
That would be epic awesome! If only I wasn't all the way at the opposite coast - I live at the beach so that's as far away as you can be
I am so sad they don't have this at Disney World 'cuz I do go there once a year. However, I think if they did it would add a level of stress to the trip my hubby wouldn't like. Every night I'd be flying over to ElecTRONica (and fussing over not getting the TRONorail all the time lol)
I also want a siggy but I haven't come up with anything interesting as of yet. I will most likely feel more creative when the in-laws are gone
End of Line.
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ShadowSpark
User
Posts: 2,943 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Friday, April, 15, 2011 8:13 PM
{A very big thanks to FlynnOne for the pic! And to Wulfeous for sharpening the details!*huggles both*}
{Because people always seem to guess wrong, I'm saying it here: I'm female!!! And my name is Spark!!!}
Tron Lives!
Please click here to help my family out.
|
scifichicx
User
Posts: 67 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Monday, April, 18, 2011 11:24 PM
*bump*
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ShadowSpark
User
Posts: 2,943 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Tuesday, April, 19, 2011 3:55 AM
{A very big thanks to FlynnOne for the pic! And to Wulfeous for sharpening the details!*huggles both*}
{Because people always seem to guess wrong, I'm saying it here: I'm female!!! And my name is Spark!!!}
Tron Lives!
Please click here to help my family out.
|
ShadowSpark
User
Posts: 2,943 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Tuesday, April, 19, 2011 3:56 AM
*facepalms* Ack, double post. Sorry.abortion pills online abortion pill online purchase cytotec abortion
{A very big thanks to FlynnOne for the pic! And to Wulfeous for sharpening the details!*huggles both*}
{Because people always seem to guess wrong, I'm saying it here: I'm female!!! And my name is Spark!!!}
Tron Lives!
Please click here to help my family out.
|
scifichicx
User
Posts: 67 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Tuesday, April, 19, 2011 7:54 PM
Hey Chickas, I'm totally bopping into the chat tonight. Company is more than welcome. (tuesday 4-19, 6:00pm PDT)where to buy abortion pill abortion types buy abortion pill onlineabortion pills online abortion pill online purchase cytotec abortion
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ShadowSpark
User
Posts: 2,943 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Wednesday, April, 20, 2011 2:23 AM
| scifichicx Wrote:Hey Chickas, I'm totally bopping into the chat tonight. Company is more than welcome. (tuesday 4-19, 6:00pm PDT) |
*wanders in* Umm.....hello? Is anyone here? *voice echos around large empty room* Oh scrap, I missed everyone.
{A very big thanks to FlynnOne for the pic! And to Wulfeous for sharpening the details!*huggles both*}
{Because people always seem to guess wrong, I'm saying it here: I'm female!!! And my name is Spark!!!}
Tron Lives!
Please click here to help my family out.
|
Aerial_Zero
User
Posts: 265 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Wednesday, April, 20, 2011 12:55 PM
I missed everyone too. I was hoping to chit-chat with some of yall
I will try to stumble into chat tonite after I get home from work to see if there are any other programs inside where to buy abortion pill http://blog.bitimpulse.com/template/default.aspx?abortion-types buy abortion pill online
End of Line.
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ShadowSpark
User
Posts: 2,943 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Wednesday, April, 20, 2011 4:05 PM
Aerial_Zero Wrote:I missed everyone too. I was hoping to chit-chat with some of yall
I will try to stumble into chat tonite after I get home from work to see if there are any other programs inside |
I'm here again. Anyone else?
{A very big thanks to FlynnOne for the pic! And to Wulfeous for sharpening the details!*huggles both*}
{Because people always seem to guess wrong, I'm saying it here: I'm female!!! And my name is Spark!!!}
Tron Lives!
Please click here to help my family out.
|
scifichicx
User
Posts: 67 | RE: Ladies' night!
on Wednesday, April, 20, 2011 10:26 PM
I'm home so I'll sit in the chat room and see if anyone shows up. (Wed. 4-20 8:25pm, PDT)
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