matthew180
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Posts: 114 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Tuesday, August, 15, 2006 11:03 PM
Carl, I think the torus is right on. How does it look with the other parts of the lightcycle? I have not had much time in the last few days to mess with it, but I'm going to try a torus soon and see what happens. It would certainly explain the seemingly rounded look and soft edge that the canopy has sometimes, depending on the picture you look at.
Martin, those are very good observations, unfortunately we will probably never know for sure. Some of the shapes are simple, others seem to complex for what we know about what MAGI could do, but there they are in pretty pink, purple, and blue. 
Looking at those cones in the second image, it looks like they could round off the nose. I would have to use two primitives to do that with my software, and matching a ellipsoid for the nose to a cone would be a pain in the butt. I know Carl would probably calculate the tangent and get it prefect... 
More corrections and images coming soon! I think I still have to taper my spokes too...
Matthew
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luggage
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Posts: 0 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Wednesday, August, 16, 2006 5:13 AM
matthew180 Wrote:
Martin, those are very good observations, unfortunately we will probably never know for sure.
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Agreed...
Some of the shapes are simple, others seem to complex for what we know about what MAGI could do, but there they are in pretty pink, purple, and blue.
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And then again, described as implicit surface, these shapes are not that complex compared to "simpler" primitives.
But pretty they are indeed.
Martin
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wwwmwww
User
Posts: 1,230 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Wednesday, August, 16, 2006 10:25 AM
| matthew180 Wrote:Looking at those cones in the second image, it looks like they could round off the nose. I would have to use two primitives to do that with my software, and matching a ellipsoid for the nose to a cone would be a pain in the butt. I know Carl would probably calculate the tangent and get it prefect... |
I don't think those are cones at all. Here is what I think those shapes are:
Those first 3 are all subsets of the more general shape called a Quadratic Surface. You can find info and links to interactive images of all these shapes from here:
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/QuadraticSurface.html
Those last two shapes (on the first row) are again 2D shapes extruded into prisms.
Carl
P.S. I've gone ahead and named what I think the rest of the shapes are as well.order abortion pill abortion pill buy online where to buy abortion pillwhere to buy abortion pill abortion types buy abortion pill online
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wwwmwww
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Posts: 1,230 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Wednesday, August, 16, 2006 10:38 AM
| matthew180 Wrote:Carl, I think the torus is right on. How does it look with the other parts of the lightcycle? |
I don't think that torus looks correct from the side. I tend to think it has too much curvature.
What do you think of the line it makes with the fender from this angle?
Carl
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wwwmwww
User
Posts: 1,230 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Wednesday, August, 16, 2006 3:45 PM
wwwmwww Wrote:
Those last two shapes (on the first row) are again 2D shapes extruded into prisms. |
I'm not sure why I didn't see this when I posted the above but even these two shapes ARE quadratic surfaces.
hyperbolic prism = hyperbolic cylinder (or half of one)
parabolic prism = parabolic cylinder
What I did above would be akin to calling a cylinder a circular prism. It is as a 2D circle extruded in the 3rd dimention is a cylinder but I think its simplier to just think of it as a 3D cylinder.
Carl
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matthew180
User
Posts: 114 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Wednesday, August, 16, 2006 4:10 PM
I had the same problem when I tried a torus for the taper. Basically your torus cross-section circle is too small. I had to actually make the cross-section an elipse to get a shape that looked correct:
However, I'm now having some quality issues where the torus mesh meets the analytic canopy. I sure wish I had a primitive torus... So, I'm considering actually making the whole canopy from a mesh since that is about the only way I can get the rounded edges that it seems MAGI could do quite easily.
Matthew
How are you going to control the universe if you can't answer a few unsolvable problems?
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matthew180
User
Posts: 114 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Wednesday, August, 16, 2006 4:13 PM
Oh, also I think your descriptions of MAGI's primitives are really accurate. Can POV do all of those?
Matthew
How are you going to control the universe if you can't answer a few unsolvable problems?
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wwwmwww
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Posts: 1,230 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Wednesday, August, 16, 2006 7:51 PM
| matthew180 Wrote:Oh, also I think your descriptions of MAGI's primitives are really accurate. Can POV do all of those? |
Yes, it's done with the Isosurface Object in POV-Ray. All the Quadratic Surfaces are just Second Order Polynomials. And I don't even think the Isosurface Object in POV-Ray is limited to functions that can be expressed as
polynomials.
There are objects in POV-Ray that are limited to the polynomial.
Quadric Object = In POV-Ray is limited to 2nd Order Polynomials.
Cubic Object = In POV-Ray is limited to 3rd Order Polynomials.
Quartic Object = In POV-Ray is limited to 4rd Order Polynomials. (A torus is an examle of this.)
And there is also a Poly Object which can be used where you specify the order of the polynomial where the order is limited to an integer number from 2 to 15 inclusively.
However reading the documentation it sounds like the Isosurface Object replaces all the above and renders faster and is even more general. Here is a quote from the docs:
"However, the most mathematically oriented still like polys because isosurfaces are calculated just by approximating the right value, while the poly is calculated in a mathematically exact way. Usually isosurfaces are more than good enough for most applications, though."
It's been proven there isn't a close form solution to the general Quartic equation so even that exact mathematical way only works with the Cubic and Quadratic equations.
Carl
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wwwmwww
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Posts: 1,230 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Wednesday, August, 16, 2006 8:06 PM
| matthew180 Wrote:I had the same problem when I tried a torus for the taper. Basically your torus cross-section circle is too small. I had to actually make the cross-section an elipse to get a shape that looked correct: |
Agreed... that looks much better. I'll have to do the same.
Carl
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matthew180
User
Posts: 114 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Wednesday, August, 23, 2006 11:40 PM
I've been meaning to post this for a while, just needed to finish it up. These are some rough angles I came up with while building my model, and they can help a lot with sizing and placement.
By the way, how is the canopy torus coming? I have not had much time to mess with mine lately, but I'll get something accomplished soon.
Also, we put off changing some of the part names before; how about hashing that over now? I think the geomerty is pretty set and we're only nit-picking smaller details at this point.
Matthew
How are you going to control the universe if you can't answer a few unsolvable problems?
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Boingo_Buzzard
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Posts: 0 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Thursday, August, 24, 2006 1:15 AM
It's funny. I feel like I am a "fly on the wall" in what would have been an e-mail thread (had e-mail existed at the time ) within MAGI at the time TRON was being developed.
Kinda neat. Someone should record this for posterity sake.
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Dakota Bob
User
Posts: 410 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Thursday, August, 24, 2006 6:51 AM
Those are some nice Light-Cycle models!  good work!
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wwwmwww
User
Posts: 1,230 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Thursday, August, 24, 2006 9:35 AM
| matthew180 Wrote:I've been meaning to post this for a while, just needed to finish it up. These are some rough angles I came up with while building my model, and they can help a lot with sizing and placement. |
Nice pic. I wish POV-Ray would make images like that easily.
| matthew180 Wrote:By the way, how is the canopy torus coming? I have not had much time to mess with mine lately, but I'll get something accomplished soon. |
Slow here at this end as well. I'll try to get some stuff finished up this weekend to post.
| matthew180 Wrote:Also, we put off changing some of the part names before; how about hashing that over now? I think the geomerty is pretty set and we're only nit-picking smaller details at this point. |
Ok... I'll prepare something on that to post too. Give me till the weekend.
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wwwmwww
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Posts: 1,230 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Thursday, August, 24, 2006 9:38 AM
I just noticed your window cuts are at 70 and 35 degrees. I believe MAGI did this with a rotated box so I tend to think these two angles should add to 90 degrees.
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matthew180
User
Posts: 114 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Thursday, August, 24, 2006 10:36 PM
Boingo_Buzzard Wrote:
It's funny. I feel like I am a "fly on the wall" in what would have been an e-mail thread (had e-mail existed at the time ) within MAGI at the time TRON was being developed.
Kinda neat. Someone should record this for posterity sake.
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Actually, email did exist (about 1965)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email
And someone is recording this as well:
http://www.archive.org/index.php
I don't know about dynamic pages such as forums though. However, once we nail everything down about the lightcycles, I'm planning on making a very detailed PDF book that covers everything talked about, from construction, to part names, dimmensions, "rules" of movement, differences in models, etc.. Kind of an unofficial lightcycle manual for anyone who wants to reproduce one as accurately as possible. I'm also going to make my final model available for anyone who wants to download it, but I use a not so popular 3D software so I supposed it will be of limited use to many.
Matthew
How are you going to control the universe if you can't answer a few unsolvable problems?
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matthew180
User
Posts: 114 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Thursday, August, 24, 2006 10:43 PM
| wwwmwww Wrote:Nice pic. I wish POV-Ray would make images like that easily. |
Thank you. However, my 3D software does not do such things that easily either, I did this one in Corel Draw. I rendered an ortho image, loaded into Corel and traced it, then added the angles, text, etc..
| wwwmwww Wrote:Ok... I'll prepare something on that to post too. Give me till the weekend. |
Take as long as you need. I'm pretty swamped right now too, mostly trying to find a paying j.o.b. (ouch!) Sure wish I could get paid for doing a lightcycle remake...
| wwwmwww Wrote:I just noticed your window cuts are at 70 and 35 degrees. I believe MAGI did this with a rotated box so I tend to think these two angles should add to 90 degrees. |
Damn, that's right! I thought about that after seeing that wire enhanced image posted, and I should have remembered that last night while finishing up. I'll have to recheck my model now too and make sure the two angles total 90. Good catch!
Matthew
How are you going to control the universe if you can't answer a few unsolvable problems?
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matthew180
User
Posts: 114 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Thursday, August, 24, 2006 10:50 PM
Oh, and about the Art of TRON book and other magazines I purchased:
The Art of TRON does not contain anything we have not seen. Actually I think most of the images you see on this site and in other various places around the Net are from this book. Mostly the conceptual art and such, and no lightcycle images we don't already have. I have not had time to read much of it, but there is really not that much text.
The magazines have more interesting stuff, especially the American Cine-a-whatever one, they really did a huge article throughout the magazine. But again, no images we don't really already have. I'll get busy with the scanning / typing as soon as I can.
Unless you really think you need the original mags, don't bother picking up any of these, I'll post all the good info and images from them.
Matthew
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How are you going to control the universe if you can't answer a few unsolvable problems?
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wwwmwww
User
Posts: 1,230 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Tuesday, September, 12, 2006 5:53 PM
No I didn't fall off the planet. My workload has more or less doubled at work here in the last several weeks and I haven't had the time or the energy to play much with POV-Ray. I'll get back to it as soon as I can but its looking like that may be a few more weeks. I wanted to make nice pictures and maybe even a little animation to go with these names but that can wait. So let me reference your images here:
http://digitalstratum.com/programming/tron_ref
Your names are on the left... my proposed names are on the right.
Canopy = Canopy
Canopy Shoulder + Trim = Side Panel Radius
I'm using definition 10 here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=radius
Side = Side Panel
Foot Rest = Light Pipe; Navigation Light; Running Light (Not sure if any of these is any better then Foot Rest)
Windshield = Windshield
Wing = Side Window; Side Bay Window
Chassis = Chassis
Engine = Front Wheel Socket; Front Wheel Projector; Front Wheel Cone
Transmission = Side Vent; Side Cone; Chassis Detail
LightJet = Fender Cone; Fender Detail; Turn Signal Mounts; Fender Flare; Tail Wing
This part reminded me of turn signal mounts of the 1950's style as seen here:
Is there a name for this style? See how the cone starts over the rear wheel and flares out with the lights on the end? I feel like there is a term at the tip of my tongue that I just can't think of.
Fender = Fender
Rear Hub = Rear Hub
Rear Wheel = Rear Wheel
Front Wheel = Front Wheel and Front Hub
Front Axle = Front Axle
Rear Axle = Rear Axle
Front Spoke = Front Spoke
Rear Spoke = Rear Spoke
Anything I over looked?
Carl
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wwwmwww
User
Posts: 1,230 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Tuesday, September, 12, 2006 6:06 PM
By the way... am I the only one to look at this:
And see a robot with one bloodshot eye, wearing glasses, with a mohawk, and his mouth gaping wide open?
Maybe I've seen too much of Sketch's art work.
Carl
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NoExcuses
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Posts: 1,760 | Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?
on Wednesday, September, 13, 2006 11:48 AM
| wwwmwww Wrote:By the way... am I the only one to look at this and see a robot with one bloodshot eye, wearing glasses, with a mohawk, and his mouth gaping wide open? |
Nope. That was actually my first thought before I saw your second post.
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