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lurkinghorror
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Posts: 803
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Saturday, April, 27, 2013 1:44 PM
1982program Wrote:I bought a legit copy of the whole book on Amazon. I was pretty disappointed. I don't understand the logic of paying for the right to write a Tron story then being pushed around by the entity who sold you the rights. Even as a fan, if I had the talent to do this (which I do not), I would just drop the project. If the end result doesn't add value to the series, then you're really not helping. Flops like this can kill a series. You think Disney wasn't paying attention to the sales of this comic....they were, and it could very well be why it took so many years after for the series to be re-launched. How long ago was this written and the "author" still has unsold copies in his office? That doesn't help any of us (fans).

So to recap.....Ghost in the Machine is not canon and was pretty lackluster (IMO) . Tell me again lurkinghorror, why is it you feel people don't have the right to seek out your work online and read it for free? By the way, I downloaded a free copy of 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea to my Iphone while I wrote this....completely legal offered by Apple. So, am I morally corrupt now?

No offense, but you're engaging in alot of speculation about the mechanics of an industry you have no familiarity with. Disney had no access to the complete sales data of this series. Neither do you, for that matter. Even if Disney did, they would little information to measure that data against. Even if they had that, they would not care.

The idea that corporations like Disney are sitting around and testing the water with each and every licensed product is a deep miscomprehension. The film department of Disney and the publishing department of Disney and the licensing department are functionally separate companies under a parent umbrella.

But if we take your world view and pretend it matches reality: The film began being worked on at the height of the comic being released. SLG still had comics rights when the film hit theaters.

Let me say that again: SLG still had comics rights when the film hit the theaters.

So if we go with your world views, it would be easy to suggest that the comic helped pave the way for the existence of the film.

You think a professional writer should walk from every project just because the editorial dictates are not easy to work with? You would have a very short career. I am a freelance writer. The bulk of my work is with Disney. It has been for 15 years. Maybe money is something you do not believe in. Maybe job stability is joke to you. Not me. I take it very seriously. Which is why, in this amazingly competitive industry, I am still employed.

As for having unsold copies... again you do not understand the way the publishing industry works. It costs to go back to reprint. It's much cheaper to overprint. We overprinted. That means that - out of around six to ten thousand copies of each book, I have a case of 300 copies left of half the issues in the series. SLG may have the same.

I'm sure the math on that is clear.

As for finding me online. I've already covered that. It's called Google. Very easy. As for your purchase on Amazon. Great! Glad you bought the book. So you see it is easy to find legitimately. My opinion and your experience is in accord.

As for your 20,000 leagues under the sea comparison: False equivalence. That book is much, much, much, much, much, much older. It's an absurd comparison, and I suspect you know this.

As for my identity: Traahn kindly verified it. Thanks Traahn! Hope to see you at a convention again!



 
Honda Enoch
User

Posts: 53
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Saturday, April, 27, 2013 3:29 PM
lurkinghorror Wrote:...As for having unsold copies... again you do not understand the way the publishing industry works. It costs to go back to reprint. It's much cheaper to overprint. We overprinted. That means that - out of around six to ten thousand copies of each book, I have a case of 300 copies left of half the issues in the series. SLG may have the same.

My brother is a writer and has told me this. It makes sense. Kinda like if Walmart can get a great deal on an item, so they buy all they can at the lower price. They may not sell them all, but it was better then if they had sold out and had to order more at that higher price later. (That's why they have the clearance racks BTW).


My other ride is a Light Cycle.
 
TRON.dll
User

Posts: 4,312
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Saturday, April, 27, 2013 3:41 PM
1982program Wrote:So to recap.....Ghost in the Machine is not canon and was pretty lackluster (IMO) . Tell me again lurkinghorror, why is it you feel people don't have the right to seek out your work online and read it for free?

Spoiler alert: The requirement of purchasing a graphic novel is not optional based on your interpretation of its quality.


TRON 2.0 (PC) name - TRON.dll
I'll play any mode, but I'm best at LC.



PSN - TRON-dll
XBOX Live/Games for Windows Live - TRONdll
-I have a Wii, DS, and 3DS. PM me to exchange friend codes.
 
lurkinghorror
User

Posts: 803
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Saturday, April, 27, 2013 4:14 PM
Honda Enoch Wrote:
lurkinghorror Wrote:...As for having unsold copies... again you do not understand the way the publishing industry works. It costs to go back to reprint. It's much cheaper to overprint. We overprinted. That means that - out of around six to ten thousand copies of each book, I have a case of 300 copies left of half the issues in the series. SLG may have the same.

My brother is a writer and has told me this. It makes sense. Kinda like if Walmart can get a great deal on an item, so they buy all they can at the lower price. They may not sell them all, but it was better then if they had sold out and had to order more at that higher price later. (That's why they have the clearance racks BTW).

That's a good analogy. To be honest, it's a big part of why I am a fan of digital distribution for individual comic issues and limited print runs for deluxe special editions. But the industry has been VERY slow to adopt these methods. Every time you buy a book, you're paying for overprint costs, as well as shipping, storage, ect... Digital still has some cots attached, but they are minimal in comparison. Which SHOULD mean a lower price point for the consumer.



 
1982program
User

Posts: 67
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Sunday, April, 28, 2013 11:48 AM
@lurkinghorror - Good grief, I really thought I squashed this.

Let's end this once and for all. Where can a consumer sitting at his PC find either a hardcopy or digital copy for purchase? Please don't say "Google" because that is a cop out.

I looked on Amazon and only volume 1 is available. SLG does not sell it on their website. Please enlighten us. Thank you.


 
TRON.dll
User

Posts: 4,312
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Sunday, April, 28, 2013 12:47 PM


TRON 2.0 (PC) name - TRON.dll
I'll play any mode, but I'm best at LC.



PSN - TRON-dll
XBOX Live/Games for Windows Live - TRONdll
-I have a Wii, DS, and 3DS. PM me to exchange friend codes.
 
lurkinghorror
User

Posts: 803
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Sunday, April, 28, 2013 4:17 PM
1982program Wrote:@lurkinghorror - Good grief, I really thought I squashed this.

Let's end this once and for all. Where can a consumer sitting at his PC find either a hardcopy or digital copy for purchase? Please don't say "Google" because that is a cop out.

I looked on Amazon and only volume 1 is available. SLG does not sell it on their website. Please enlighten us. Thank you.

Google is a cop out? How so?

Volume 1 is the only volume. So you found everything.

SLG no longer has the legal right to sell it directly on their website. It's a weird wrinkle, but that's just the way licensed contracts work. You have a limited time that you can directly sell the licensed product.. However (and I am just speculating here) SLG provided copies to distributors while the contract was active - such as Amazon. If you buy a new copy from them, it's entirely possible that they are selling from the pool that SLG provided during the time they were contractually able to. Which means it's entirely likely you are putting money back in the hands that invested in the license in the first place.

There are no legitimate digital copies. The rights to digital distribution were not included in the contract.


 
TRON.dll
User

Posts: 4,312
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Sunday, April, 28, 2013 4:39 PM
lurkinghorror Wrote:
1982program Wrote:@lurkinghorror - Good grief, I really thought I squashed this.

Let's end this once and for all. Where can a consumer sitting at his PC find either a hardcopy or digital copy for purchase? Please don't say "Google" because that is a cop out.

I looked on Amazon and only volume 1 is available. SLG does not sell it on their website. Please enlighten us. Thank you.

Google is a cop out? How so?

Volume 1 is the only volume. So you found everything.

SLG no longer has the legal right to sell it directly on their website. It's a weird wrinkle, but that's just the way licensed contracts work. You have a limited time that you can directly sell the licensed product.. However (and I am just speculating here) SLG provided copies to distributors while the contract was active - such as Amazon. If you buy a new copy from them, it's entirely possible that they are selling from the pool that SLG provided during the time they were contractually able to. Which means it's entirely likely you are putting money back in the hands that invested in the license in the first place.

There are no legitimate digital copies. The rights to digital distribution were not included in the contract.

I think he may have assumed that the "volume 1" he found was "issue 1" of the comics. For clarification's purposes, volume 1 of the graphic novel contains each issue of the comics, right?


TRON 2.0 (PC) name - TRON.dll
I'll play any mode, but I'm best at LC.



PSN - TRON-dll
XBOX Live/Games for Windows Live - TRONdll
-I have a Wii, DS, and 3DS. PM me to exchange friend codes.
 
lurkinghorror
User

Posts: 803
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Sunday, April, 28, 2013 4:42 PM
TRON.dll Wrote:
lurkinghorror Wrote:
1982program Wrote:@lurkinghorror - Good grief, I really thought I squashed this.

Let's end this once and for all. Where can a consumer sitting at his PC find either a hardcopy or digital copy for purchase? Please don't say "Google" because that is a cop out.

I looked on Amazon and only volume 1 is available. SLG does not sell it on their website. Please enlighten us. Thank you.

Google is a cop out? How so?

Volume 1 is the only volume. So you found everything.

SLG no longer has the legal right to sell it directly on their website. It's a weird wrinkle, but that's just the way licensed contracts work. You have a limited time that you can directly sell the licensed product.. However (and I am just speculating here) SLG provided copies to distributors while the contract was active - such as Amazon. If you buy a new copy from them, it's entirely possible that they are selling from the pool that SLG provided during the time they were contractually able to. Which means it's entirely likely you are putting money back in the hands that invested in the license in the first place.

There are no legitimate digital copies. The rights to digital distribution were not included in the contract.

I think he may have assumed that the "volume 1" he found was "issue 1" of the comics. For clarification's purposes, volume 1 of the graphic novel contains each issue of the comics, right?

Yeah, Volume 1 collects the entire series. The individual issues are also listed on Amazon - though I don't know if they are all actually available. And if they are, they may not be listed at a reasonable price.



 
TRON.dll
User

Posts: 4,312
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Sunday, April, 28, 2013 5:05 PM
lurkinghorror Wrote:Yeah, Volume 1 collects the entire series. The individual issues are also listed on Amazon - though I don't know if they are all actually available. And if they are, they may not be listed at a reasonable price.

That's what I thought. I re-read your first post in this thread and I've gotta say, hearing production nightmare stories like that always get me kinda down. In the end, though, you guys at the very least expanded the Tron universe in some way. Whether it was how you guys envisioned it or not, you still had an impact on the official canon.

I still feel bad since I still haven't read Ghost in the Machine yet. It was apparently available at my local Borders store a while back when I picked up the Tron Betrayal graphic novel, but it slipped my mind and I was too lazy to drive to my local Borders to see if they had it oh hey look the reason Borders fizzled out of existence.

Also, sorry about the reaction from some of the site's members in this thread. Moderation around here these days seems to be... well, I hate to say this, uncommon.


TRON 2.0 (PC) name - TRON.dll
I'll play any mode, but I'm best at LC.



PSN - TRON-dll
XBOX Live/Games for Windows Live - TRONdll
-I have a Wii, DS, and 3DS. PM me to exchange friend codes.
 
1982program
User

Posts: 67
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Sunday, April, 28, 2013 8:28 PM
TRON.dll Wrote:
lurkinghorror Wrote:Yeah, Volume 1 collects the entire series. The individual issues are also listed on Amazon - though I don't know if they are all actually available. And if they are, they may not be listed at a reasonable price.

That's what I thought. I re-read your first post in this thread and I've gotta say, hearing production nightmare stories like that always get me kinda down. In the end, though, you guys at the very least expanded the Tron universe in some way. Whether it was how you guys envisioned it or not, you still had an impact on the official canon.

I still feel bad since I still haven't read Ghost in the Machine yet. It was apparently available at my local Borders store a while back when I picked up the Tron Betrayal graphic novel, but it slipped my mind and I was too lazy to drive to my local Borders to see if they had it oh hey look the reason Borders fizzled out of existence.

Also, sorry about the reaction from some of the site's members in this thread. Moderation around here these days seems to be... well, I hate to say this, uncommon.

@tron.dll & lurkinghorror - Yes, I assumed Vol 1 was Issue 1. I bought the book so I got the whole series. For some reason, when I purchased it Amazon did not specify Volume 1. I've never searched for a book thru Google the way Tron.dll did because it pulls up a number of retailers that may or may not be reputable....also, many of the copies for sale were used. Please correct me if I am wrong but Ghost In The Machine IS NOT canon.

On another note. Tron.dll, if you are apologizing for "some of the site's members"....please specify who you are apologizing for. You certainly aren't speaking for me. I don't have any reason to apologize anymore than I already did in an earlier post. I already attempted to put this issue to rest but was unsuccessful. Lurkinghorror has made it clear no legitimate copies of this series are available online. Tron.dll - use your awesome internet skills and pick up a copy of Ghost In The Machine...your obviously a fan of lurkinghorror's work, don't you owe it to him to purchase the book? You've already shown us how little effort is needed to do so. Or, maybe lurkinghorror will send you a copy if you ask nicely.





 
TRON.dll
User

Posts: 4,312
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Monday, April, 29, 2013 1:56 AM
1982program Wrote:I've never searched for a book thru Google the way Tron.dll did because it pulls up a number of retailers that may or may not be reputable....also, many of the copies for sale were used.

I was not aware that the book being used or new was a factor in your purchase decision. However, it should go without saying that many instances of the book at this point in time are going to be used sales from users on sites like eBay or Amazon.

Please correct me if I am wrong but Ghost In The Machine IS NOT canon.

That's correct... partially. Ghost in the Machine is canon in the Tron 2.0 story arc, but not the Legacy one.

On another note. Tron.dll, if you are apologizing for "some of the site's members"....please specify who you are apologizing for.

I kept it vague as to not potentially insult anyone. Being specific was not necessary as the person who that message was directed to would have known who I was talking about. In that sense, I admit that it may have been more appropriate as a private message, and I apologize for that.

You certainly aren't speaking for me. I don't have any reason to apologize anymore than I already did in an earlier post. I already attempted to put this issue to rest but was unsuccessful.

If I'm not speaking for you, then you have no need to suddenly get very defensive. Please don't try to start fights with people on the public forums. If you need the gratification of knowing that you "won" a debate with me on the internet, I'd be happy to fulfill that via private messages.

Lurkinghorror has made it clear no legitimate copies of this series are available online.

I personally consider used copies of products to be legitimate since I'm still paying for them. I understand that none of the money from used sales don't go to the production company, but really, by this point in time, finding a new copy of Ghost in the Machine is going to be like trying to find a new copy of Super Mario Brothers.

Tron.dll - use your awesome internet skills and pick up a copy of Ghost In The Machine...

I would, but I wouldn't have time to read it. Busy with work and school and whatnot.

your obviously a fan of lurkinghorror's work, don't you owe it to him to purchase the book?

I've actually never read any of his stuff. I'd like to, but as I said above, I don't really have too much free time right now. Just because I'm being nice and trying to give him at least one positive thing to take away from this thread doesn't make me a diehard fan of him. I respect all members on this site.

You've already shown us how little effort is needed to do so. Or, maybe lurkinghorror will send you a copy if you ask nicely.

That would be pretty cool, yeah! Can we go back to discussing Tron now?


TRON 2.0 (PC) name - TRON.dll
I'll play any mode, but I'm best at LC.



PSN - TRON-dll
XBOX Live/Games for Windows Live - TRONdll
-I have a Wii, DS, and 3DS. PM me to exchange friend codes.
 
lurkinghorror
User

Posts: 803
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Monday, April, 29, 2013 3:06 AM
1982program Wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong but Ghost In The Machine IS NOT canon.

Who decides what is and isn't canon? The only person I would listen to is Lisberger. After that, it's all derivative works from an original source. Quality aside and preferences, any official material is equal.

That said, as far as I am aware there is little reason the story cannot work within the framework of the newer "canon". It's a isolated story that takes place on a separate system and all of the "human" scenes are essentially part of a simulated reality brought on during an experiment to create a sentient and self-aware artificial intelligence complex enough to be brought into the real world.

Off topic: The story was originally supposed to be about a copy of Flynn, but Disney insisted we use Jet.

1982program Wrote:Lurkinghorror has made it clear no legitimate copies of this series are available online.


I did not say that. Not at all. the Amazon copy you bought is quite legitimate, and likely put money back in the hands of the publisher.

1982program Wrote:maybe lurkinghorror will send you a copy if you ask nicely.


Happily. I just sent Honda Enoch's copies out yesterday. That said, I only have half the series on hand.


 
Honda Enoch
User

Posts: 53
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Monday, April, 29, 2013 4:48 AM
TRON.dll Wrote:
Lurkinghorror has made it clear no legitimate copies of this series are available online.

I personally consider used copies of products to be legitimate since I'm still paying for them. I understand that none of the money from used sales don't go to the production company, but really, by this point in time, finding a new copy of Ghost in the Machine is going to be like trying to find a new copy of Super Mario Brothers.

There is nothing wrong with buying a used copy of anything. If it is a legit copy, only used, the production company and whoever else has already made their money from it. Buying it used, you are only now paying the original buyer back what they are asking for it and the item is now transferred to you.

You don't see Ford getting mad because someone sells a used (sorry, "pre-owned") Mustang in the newspaper. No, Ford already made their money on the original sale.



Side note; If you wanted a BRAND NEW copy of Super Mario Brothers. You can get it very easy.


My other ride is a Light Cycle.
 
DarthMeow504
User

Posts: 128
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Monday, April, 29, 2013 8:33 AM
There is no difference to the artist between buying used and getting a free duplicate. They do not get paid either way. This is why I, for example, will only purchase Metallica CD's used so as to not put money in their pockets. From their perspective, it's the same as piracy. They get no money regardless.

IF there are no new copies available from the publisher of an out of print work, then you do no harm to the creator by downloading a free duplicate. It seems that may be the case here, but it's not quite clear from my reading of the thread. It doesn't seem that the author gets any additional payment from sales at this point regardless, unless there are royalties or residuals in place that were not mentioned.

In such a case, the ONLY way to benefit the author of a work is to find a new copy for sale from an authorized retailer (though that may only benefit the publisher depending on the structure of the contract) or giving a direct donation to them. If neither of those options is available, then a digital duplicate is entirely legitimate. At worst, piracy only "steals" a potential sale, and a product that is not in current production for sale cannot have sales stolen from it.

An author that complains about the duplication of an out of print work they no longer receive revenue from is disingenuous.


 
KingJ.exe
User

Posts: 371
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Monday, April, 29, 2013 12:03 PM
Ugh. Let's talk TRON for a minute.

I got my hands on a copy, and I must say that I enjoyed the work greatly. It had the same kind of feel of the action/thriller movies that I love, the ones that keep you guessing right up until the end. It was a fantastic trip, and did lay down some items that could be included in the newer canon (P.S.: Even though I believe Disney sources have said that 2.0 and GITM are non-canon, I am of the opinion that with minor changes in details (such as the date of Flynn's disappearance, neat coincidence that both had Flynn go poof) 2.0 could easily fit into canon.).

That said, I do wish that the artists had done a better job of making Jet look like Jet, but after what lurkinghorror said about it originally supposed to be Flynn, I can see why he looks extremely different in some places. I would assume that the artwork for some pages was completed before Disney told you to change?

And the final moments of his torture by Red Jet, when Blue Jet realizes it's all in his "head", and he's in control, that was fantastic.

Everybody go join End of Line, an awesome TRON Roleplay forum! http://troneol.b1.jcink.com/index.php?
 
TRON.dll
User

Posts: 4,312
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Monday, April, 29, 2013 2:36 PM
KingJ.exe Wrote:Ugh. Let's talk TRON for a minute.

I got my hands on a copy, and I must say that I enjoyed the work greatly. It had the same kind of feel of the action/thriller movies that I love, the ones that keep you guessing right up until the end. It was a fantastic trip, and did lay down some items that could be included in the newer canon (P.S.: Even though I believe Disney sources have said that 2.0 and GITM are non-canon, I am of the opinion that with minor changes in details (such as the date of Flynn's disappearance, neat coincidence that both had Flynn go poof) 2.0 could easily fit into canon.).

Lara's death plays heavily into the creation of the personality of Ma3a. I think the idea was that her mind was digitized and merged into the existing Ma1a code, since Ma1a was handling the digitization process. In Betrayal and the ARG, she is alive.


TRON 2.0 (PC) name - TRON.dll
I'll play any mode, but I'm best at LC.



PSN - TRON-dll
XBOX Live/Games for Windows Live - TRONdll
-I have a Wii, DS, and 3DS. PM me to exchange friend codes.
 
Honda Enoch
User

Posts: 53
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Monday, April, 29, 2013 4:37 PM
lurkinghorror Wrote:Happily. I just sent Honda Enoch's copies out yesterday. That said, I only have half the series on hand.

Just got them today. Thank you very much.

My other ride is a Light Cycle.
 
J
User

Posts: 247
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Monday, April, 29, 2013 6:46 PM
lurkinghorror Wrote:
1982program Wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong but Ghost In The Machine IS NOT canon.

Who decides what is and isn't canon? The only person I would listen to is Lisberger. After that, it's all derivative works from an original source. Quality aside and preferences, any official material is equal.



I'm kinda glad Disney made that call, actually. The character was underbaked in the game itself (we're talking a FPS, not a BioWare RPG), and it was so refreshing to have a contrast from Betrayal!Flynn who saw all the wonders, but was blithely oblivious to the responsibility aspects, or Legacy!Flynn who appears to have given up on the Programs and/or threw them under the bus to save what was left of the Iso miracle.

My relationship to canon in a given universe is a little fast and loose anyways. Han shot first, Revan's a chick, Exile's a guy, that Reaver missile missed Serenity's pilot seat, and Tron 2.0 totally happened, but maybe not quite the way it was shown in-game.

KingJ.exe Wrote: (P.S.: Even though I believe Disney sources have said that 2.0 and GITM are non-canon, I am of the opinion that with minor changes in details (such as the date of Flynn's disappearance, neat coincidence that both had Flynn go poof) 2.0 could easily fit into canon.).

Flynn AND Tron both go missing in 2.0/GitM. Talk about a PERFECT setup! Hell, if you were inclined to go this route, you could also say Alan became a lot more willing to entertain the notion Flynn was alive, and renew his efforts after seeing cyberspace for himself.

Plus, you could not invent a better Lancer to Sam's hero.

I'm not so sure Sam will want to be all that charitable towards the Programs. There wasn't a single Program on the Grid that wasn't trying to get him killed. Their leader was a nasty piece of work, the great champion turned into a corrupted digital Darth Vader who almost removed Sam's head before a cheering crowd of thousands. And his dad, the biggest advocate for their world, was killed in front of him by his own Program.
Contrast with 2.0 and assuming "Blue Jet" has the same perspective the analog one does. The conflict on 2.0 centered around ill-intentioned humans doing what humanity has so horribly done with a new frontier; enslave/kill the natives, strip it for parts, and set themselves to world conquest. In 2.0, the Programs were not evil. Even the ICP units were more mistaken than anything. The Z-Lots were innocent Programs corrupted by an ill-intentioned User with delusions of godhood. Along the way, Jet had Program allies; Ma3a, Byte, Mercuty, I-No, Romie.

So, throw both boys into cyberspace for another round, and you have a wonderful conflict to work from, as well as the math that would say that they're brothers in all but name...Of course, the stumper I've run into for fanfic is how much of a train wreck it'll be when Jet meets Tronzler. Jet's already seen what bad code does to good Programs.

TRON.dll Wrote:
Lora's death plays heavily into the creation of the personality of Ma3a. I think the idea was that her mind was digitized and merged into the existing Ma1a code, since Ma1a was handling the digitization process. In Betrayal and the ARG, she is alive.

The accident can be kept, if you downgrade it to "injury" instead of "death." There are bigger continuity flubs in your average issue of the DCU.


It's an entire universe in there, one we created, but it's beyond us now. Really. It's outgrown us. You know, every time you shut off your computer...do you know what you're doing? Have you ever reformatted a hard drive? Deleted old software? Destroyed an entire universe?"

-- Jet Bradley, Tron: Ghost in the Machine on why being a User isn't necessarily a good thing.
 
lurkinghorror
User

Posts: 803
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Monday, April, 29, 2013 10:05 PM
J Wrote:
lurkinghorror Wrote:
1982program Wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong but Ghost In The Machine IS NOT canon.

Who decides what is and isn't canon? The only person I would listen to is Lisberger. After that, it's all derivative works from an original source. Quality aside and preferences, any official material is equal.



I'm kinda glad Disney made that call, actually. The character was underbaked in the game itself (we're talking a FPS, not a BioWare RPG), and it was so refreshing to have a contrast from Betrayal!Flynn who saw all the wonders, but was blithely oblivious to the responsibility aspects, or Legacy!Flynn who appears to have given up on the Programs and/or threw them under the bus to save what was left of the Iso miracle.

My relationship to canon in a given universe is a little fast and loose anyways. Han shot first, Revan's a chick, Exile's a guy, that Reaver missile missed Serenity's pilot seat, and Tron 2.0 totally happened, but maybe not quite the way it was shown in-game.

KingJ.exe Wrote: (P.S.: Even though I believe Disney sources have said that 2.0 and GITM are non-canon, I am of the opinion that with minor changes in details (such as the date of Flynn's disappearance, neat coincidence that both had Flynn go poof) 2.0 could easily fit into canon.).

Flynn AND Tron both go missing in 2.0/GitM. Talk about a PERFECT setup! Hell, if you were inclined to go this route, you could also say Alan became a lot more willing to entertain the notion Flynn was alive, and renew his efforts after seeing cyberspace for himself.

Plus, you could not invent a better Lancer to Sam's hero.

I'm not so sure Sam will want to be all that charitable towards the Programs. There wasn't a single Program on the Grid that wasn't trying to get him killed. Their leader was a nasty piece of work, the great champion turned into a corrupted digital Darth Vader who almost removed Sam's head before a cheering crowd of thousands. And his dad, the biggest advocate for their world, was killed in front of him by his own Program.
Contrast with 2.0 and assuming "Blue Jet" has the same perspective the analog one does. The conflict on 2.0 centered around ill-intentioned humans doing what humanity has so horribly done with a new frontier; enslave/kill the natives, strip it for parts, and set themselves to world conquest. In 2.0, the Programs were not evil. Even the ICP units were more mistaken than anything. The Z-Lots were innocent Programs corrupted by an ill-intentioned User with delusions of godhood. Along the way, Jet had Program allies; Ma3a, Byte, Mercuty, I-No, Romie.

So, throw both boys into cyberspace for another round, and you have a wonderful conflict to work from, as well as the math that would say that they're brothers in all but name...Of course, the stumper I've run into for fanfic is how much of a train wreck it'll be when Jet meets Tronzler. Jet's already seen what bad code does to good Programs.

TRON.dll Wrote:
Lora's death plays heavily into the creation of the personality of Ma3a. I think the idea was that her mind was digitized and merged into the existing Ma1a code, since Ma1a was handling the digitization process. In Betrayal and the ARG, she is alive.

The accident can be kept, if you downgrade it to "injury" instead of "death." There are bigger continuity flubs in your average issue of the DCU.

If I recall correctly (it has been along time since I worked on Tron) the end of Ghost in the Machine we suggested that Lora was actually alive, the idea being that maybe the illusions of reality stretched further back then issue 1, and that the original adventures of Jet in Tron 2.0 might not have been as real as we were lead to believe. That (I think) was included mainly to help maintain the story as part of canon regardless of any changes made further down the line. Also, Cindy Morgan asked me to make Lora alive again. So I did. unless I didn't. It was along time ago and many things were cut from the final script after it was written.

Regarding canon: From the onset, the world of Tron has been one of mutable reality. Was Flynn running around as a tiny person having adventures throwing light frisbees? Or has his mind interpreted a world of pure information into a patter familiar enough to understand? Would a different mind interpret reality the same way, or would information subconsciously shape around their needs or expectations?

What is canon in a universe that changes every minute, depending on who is looking at it? What is canon in a universe that can be reset, erased and rebuilt? And if you go into the computer and come out again, how certain can you be that you came out?

As far as I'm concerned, it's all "canon". It's all official anyway, and Disney has not stated in any way that I would consider definitive that one aspect of the expanded Tron universe is "real" over another. Even if they did, the opinion is meaningless unless it comes from Lisberger.

So long story short: It all happened. Jet, Sam, Mercury, Quorra. So on and so on. But that's doesn't mean it all really "happened".





 
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