Vaporware Wrote:Kat, that you've labeled Tron as a Mary-Sue is interesting. Would you label a character like Samurai Jack similarly? Jack is a do-gooder, but he's seen to struggle with it at times. I always thought that it gave that character a heroic depth that many other hero characters lack. may Tron too. There's so little material in the Tron Universe, so it makes it hard to evaluate...

I have no idea who the other character is, so I couldn't tell you.

See, the thing is that we never see Tron struggling with being good. I don't count the Rinzler thing; he hadn't much choice in that matter and besides, he changed back in the end anyway. He simply does what's right. He fights for the users, he defends his friends, and never once does he second-guess that. He's so good at fighting and defending the Grid that he's light-years ahead of everyone else in skill. You don't see him uncertain, you don't see him do anything dumb, he never needs to ask someone else what needs to be done, he never even fumbles with a disc.

Hell, I wrote a short story once where he's not quite so perfect and I never posted it because I figured that would piss people off.

But like I said, while Mary Sues usually bug the hell out of me, it doesn't with Tron. Dunno why. Maybe it's because he's a program rather than a human being.

Vaporware Wrote:You've never heard of Samurai Jack...?

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Another discrepancy between T:B and T:L that it has taken me this long to notice: Flynn's house. In T:L, we're given a quite clear view of the front of it (http://www.homeofthenutty.com/movies/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=140&pid=150516#top_display_media). It's a one-story house (and, I should note, it's adorable).

However, in T:B, clearly Flynn and Jordan live in a two-story house. In the scene where Jordan calls Flynn to come reheat her hot-water bottle, we see him standing in the doorway of their bedroom and behind him is a set of stairs leading down.

I just tell myself maybe he and Sam moved some time after Jordan dies (and I've seen one person who seems to take the tack that it's actually Flynn's parents' house we're seeing in the film), but...

LORD_Z3DD Wrote:I think we can safely asume that Betrayal is no longer canon after seing the last episode of Uprising , where it is revealed that TRON did not escape with an injure in his shoulder, instead he was captured by Dyson. However there's still a question that no other Legacy material other than betrayal has answered, Why did the Isos suddenly stopped coming from the sea of simulation? In Evolution CLU nukes their cities destroying the Isos that already existed , but it's never explained what stops the sea of simulation from creating more programs. Also, maybe it's just that making fun of Self inserts and bad characters in fanfics for years has altered my sue detector, but I don't see how Tron could be a Mary sue, it's true that he beats easily all of his opponents and even CLU's deadliest soldier is no match for him , but Mary Sues don't have the problems Tron has , so far : - He was taken to a new server (probably without his agreement) and away from his love , Yori -His need for the Users allowed CLU to begin his dictatorship on the grid , because he keet waiting for Flynn to come back and give him orders - Despite easily beating four Black Guards he gets defeated fairly easily by CLU -Get's a mortal wound that keeps him from actively fighting -Get's repurposed into Rinzler -Get's beaten AGAIN by CLU I may be wrong, but mary sues usually dont deal with epics amounts of crap like Tron has

I like to point out on one comment of your's about TRON being taken to a new server. I actually believe he was COPIED over to Flynn's server and this took place in the mid-1980s where TRON was still being used in ENCOM's system up through 1989 and probably continued on past that point.

Which means that TRON was already up to his peak to the hardware limit of Flynn's server since he disappeared in 1989, while ENCOM Tron keeps upgrading past that. And that even means ENCOM TRON (the original) would be more powerful than the "Rinzler" version.

Something to think about. And remember CDs were coming around the corner from Japan in the 1980s and ENCOM would be using top of the line tech, not floppies, to store programs and data.

You're right though that there are contradictions between T:B/T:Uprising and T:L. For instance, if you look at the original pilot, we see Flynn sitting in front of a monitor that is standing upright in his lab, BUT in the film, Flynn's computer lies flat "Dillinger Style", which is kind of funny because one has to wonder how he could put up with such bad workstation ergonomics, so much for a professional programmer such as him and CEO--at the time.

Pilgrim1099 Wrote: I like to point out on one comment of your's about TRON being taken to a new server. I actually believe he was COPIED over to Flynn's server and this took place in the mid-1980s where TRON was still being used in ENCOM's system up through 1989 and probably continued on past that point. Which means that TRON was already up to his peak to the hardware limit of Flynn's server since he disappeared in 1989, while ENCOM Tron keeps upgrading past that. And that even means ENCOM TRON (the original) would be more powerful than the "Rinzler" version.

If you are okay with it I would like to discusse this pion in another thread, because i feel it would take the discussion too away from kat's point in this discussion ( the discrepancies between Betrayal and Legacy)

The more I write from it, the more I realize that T:B has a LOT of problems. Namely the fact that it takes place over the course of many years-- and you can't tell me that over the span of YEARS Flynn couldn't put in a few weeks' worth of work to figure out what the hell the problem with the system was? When he can put in an entire day there that will only take up ten frigging minutes of his "real world" time? Especially since he's so clueless throughout about everything that goes on-- which means he's barely spent any time really looking at the place at all. IN SIX YEARS. Not to mention that in that span of time-- the equivalent of 300 years there-- the place is shown in such chaos that it seems it's about to fall apart any minute but somehow it keeps holding on even though it's shown to be on the brink of complete failure.

Like someone else said, the graphic novel gives some interesting new angles, but raises a hell of a lot of questions. And, quite frankly, makes Flynn look like a big asshole, in a lot of ways. At least in T:L you can like Flynn-- he's a dude that screwed up, but it was due to a certain naivete and lack of foresight. In T:B, the dude screws over his wife, friends, and in-laws leaving them to take care of his responsibilities, screws over his kid by never being there for him, probably at least partially screws over a big corporation by never being around and not giving a shit when he is, and screws over an entire universe by not only not being there to fix problems that put it in serious danger but also acting flip about the problems and not taking them seriously. (And the only one who DOESN'T meekly put up with it and let Flynn use him like an off-brand Kleenex is painted as the bad guy, where all the "good guys" lie back and take it.) Wow. I want to use the dude for boxing practice.


The other problem T:B brings up is: T:L never mentions gridbugs or problems. Does that mean the problems DID stop after Clu gets rid of the Isos, and therefore he was right? (I don't think that's what the film means to imply-- I think it's just another huge discrepancy and it almost feels like T:B came out *after* T:L which would explain why the film seems to take *nothing* from the graphic novel into account-- but that IS what you sort of take away from it if you put the two together.) But if that's what happens, it would go a long way in explaining why the programs on the Grid put up with Clu taking over-- fear aside, they would notice that yeah, he seems to have solved a problem that had them all living in fear, which is a hell of a lot more than "the creator" ever did-- and Clu could take that tack against Flynn (to explain how Flynn fighting makes Clu stronger): "Yeah, so here's this guy who would just let you live like this, I made this world safe, and he's actually FIGHTING to take you back into danger."


I like that it makes you THINK more than the films, but unfortunately, the more you think about it-- as a storyline rather than the issues it raises-- the more it doesn't make sense, either.


Re: Tron as Mary Sue: I guess I think of him as a Mary Sue more in terms of the first film, which is why I'm disappointed by some of the stuff he does/that happens to him in T:B and T:L (and I've talked about that before, of course, and it's more that I want to see him consistent with how we got to know him in T82 than wanting him as a MS. And I know others have expressed dissatisfaction in general with fight scenes in T:L). It's true that MSes also often go along with a certain plotline (although again: see T82... and I've seen a lot of MSes that get into plenty of scrapes but the intent is to make them look heroic or long-suffering rather than stupid), but I was thinking more in terms of the character himself and his personality rather than outside events that happen to him.where to buy abortion pill abortion types buy abortion pill online

But that's the thing-- how can he NOT know? Toward the end of T:B, every time he goes there Tron has to save him from some catastrophe (still haven't figured out, btw, exactly what those catastrophes are-- we're shown Tron throwing a disc at falling stuff, etc., but it's never really clear what he's "fighting" against or what causes it. Do gridbugs show up and bust up buildings? Do they attack people?). And you can't tell me Tron/Clu/Shaddox haven't *told* him what's going on, or tried to tell him, and apparently he just blows them off. How could be possibly be so clueless as to NOT know how serious it is?

The first thing they show us on the Grid is Flynn and Tron barely escaping a major infrastructure collapse. Tron's like "holy crap we almost died" and Flynn's like "woohoo, that was fun!" Tron points out to him that there's a problem, and Flynn pretty much says "nah dude you can take care of it, see ya!"

I mean, I know it's all up to interpretation, but as for me, I can't see any way he would NOT know what's going on unless he's completely stupid, which means he is IGNORING the problem. That's cold, man. And even worse? Clus the only one who wants to fix it. Even Tron-- our hero Tron, you know, the guy who fights for freedom and justice and the Grid Way and all that? The good guy?-- just wants to keep waiting for Flynn to fix it. He's willing to watch his world literally fall apart around his ears, possibly watch programs die, all because (like Alan, later) he's carrying a torch for a guy whose ethics are a bit sketchy.

(And that's just Flynn in the digital world. The way he behaves in the "real world" is another thing altogether.)

Anyway, I feel like I'm hijacking the thread too and going off on tangents-- though I guess you could argue that personality discrepancies might technically be on-topic here? Dunno-- so I'm not going to argue the point much further, but suffice it to say-- yeah, I think there are problems with the story for sure.abortion pills online abortion pill online purchase cytotec abortion

Kat Wrote:The first thing they show us on the Grid is Flynn and Tron barely escaping a major infrastructure collapse. Tron's like "holy crap we almost died" and Flynn's like "woohoo, that was fun!" Tron points out to him that there's a problem, and Flynn pretty much says "nah dude you can take care of it, see ya!" I mean, I know it's all up to interpretation, but as for me, I can't see any way he would NOT know what's going on unless he's completely stupid, which means he is IGNORING the problem. That's cold, man. And even worse? Clus the only one who wants to fix it. Even Tron-- our hero Tron, you know, the guy who fights for freedom and justice and the Grid Way and all that? The good guy?-- just wants to keep waiting for Flynn to fix it. He's willing to watch his world literally fall apart around his ears, possibly watch programs die, all because (like Alan, later) he's carrying a torch for a guy whose ethics are a bit sketchy.

I think it's not so much that Flynn is ignoring it, but he's jaded by what he's seen. He knows these programs are just as capable as Users are in the real world, and that they can solve their own problems. He just doesn't realize that they don't know that.

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Pilgrim1099 Wrote:I think the fault lies between the editorial of the T:B comic and Disney. Lack of communication to get their facts straight. It's not the "character's fault" that they behave this way, it's the writer(s). They're the ones that's pulling strings/writing the story and how airtight the plot and development is, depends on their skill and professionalism to get. it. right. The writer is responsible for getting the characterization right. And in a sense, it is also the editor's fault (Marvel Comics) for not cracking down enough on the writer to clean things up. Personally, Tron: Betrayal should have been a large one-shot paperback with more than 60 pages of story. Maybe even up to 100. But no, it was a two-parter consisting of two 22-page comics which adds up to about 44 pages including advertisement.

Oh, the character discrepancies are totally the fault of the writers. The fact that they didn't appear to think about the details too clearly-- same. But, they DID write him as a dude who ignores the programs' problems (to the point of acting flip and like he's at a playground even when they're clearly in trouble), and who seriously uses everyone around him by making them take care of HIS responsibilities (Jordan, and later her parents, do most of the care of Sam-- Flynn can't even show up on time for her doctor appointments or Sam's *birth*; Alan's trying to smooth stuff over at Encom-- not only making excuses for Flynn who's apparently never there, but having to play the diplomat and even speak up for him in meetings; who knows who's running the arcade; and Clu/Tron/Shaddox are trying to clean up messes in the Grid). And THAT, I do put square on the character.

Sso02V Wrote:I think it's not so much that Flynn is ignoring it, but he's jaded by what he's seen. He knows these programs are just as capable as Users are in the real world, and that they can solve their own problems. He just doesn't realize that they don't know that. He's too busy being in awe of it all that he forgets to be God when they need him.

KingJ.exe Wrote:This is exactly what I think happens. Flynn both sees the potential of these programs to handle it themselves, and is so in awe of the world he found and built that he can't really see that they DO need his help in this instance. Top that off with trying to run a massive corporation in the Real World, and he is constantly being pulled in two directions. When the ISOs manifested, it was really more than he could handle at the moment. He just couldn't see it, and there really was nothing he could do outside of CLUs "Nuke 'em and forget about em" plan. So even if he DID see the problem for what it was, I don't see what he could have done about it aside from what he did: Resign from Encom to spend time with his son (another thing he didn't have nearly enough time for) and work on the Grid. But it was too little, too late.

Mostly, yeah. Clu's the only one in that system not sitting on his hands. Although I don't think they have the ability to solve the problem, only deal with it (which is what they are doing). Clu wants a better solution, and Flynn's not providing it. It could be that the action Clu takes is the only one available to him; the creator of the system, or someone who can look at it from outside, may be required to figure out how to curb it. (Possibly Tron and Shaddox are aware of this, which is why they may advocate non-action, I don't know.) But I also think Flynn sticks his head in the sand-- he doesn't *want* to believe it, because he can't deal with yet another thing piling on.

As for what could be done-- it's a good question. They never make clear exactly how quickly, and in what numbers, the Isos are showing up, so we don't know how dire the problem is (they are very vague about the Grid's problems; we're just supposed to say "oh, there are problems, it may be related to the Isos, it's a big issue, okay" but they dont' want to have to figure out exactly what's going on or how it's exhibited so they can tell US). Any solution may smack of eugenics-- figuring out how to limit the number of the Isos that manifest is the first one that comes to mind (see real-world issue: overpopulation). I wonder if anyone ever consulted the Isos about the issue; surely they were aware it was possible that their population boom was responsible for the instabilities. Judging from their attitude shown in the graphic novel, either they're very standoffish, or they're wary because of past treatment; it's never stated which it is (see real-world issue: minority relations).