Realized after I posted in the other thread that it makes a lot more sense to make a separate new one. So:

Kaisergrendel Wrote: Kat Wrote:Do we also want deviations between Betrayal and OT, or just T:L? Might as well do both and Evolution as well

Well, I've not played Evolution, so I'll have to leave that to someone else.

Okay:

Betrayal vs. OT:

--Betrayal seems to imply Flynn created the whole Encom Grid, inc. the MCP. Um... highly unlikely.

--"Flynn was a fast learner and soon dominated the Games." Um... he played ONE game. He won, yes, but I wouldn't call that "dominating the Games."

--Nitpicky, but color: in the lightcycle section, they show a yellow cycle trapped between an orange and blue cycle and hitting the wall. Wrong color!

However. I will give a slight pass to this section, because the prologue is supposed to be Dumont doing a narrative to record on Flynn's disc for posterity, and the style of writing makes me think discrepancies could be due to the fact that there may well be a few egotistical embellishments on Flynn's part, so this could be intentional by the authors rather than a mistake.


Betrayal vs. T:L:

--The prologue of Betrayal refers to "Flynn's story begins in the world of the Users, a city of angels and lights." We've debated before that T:L, at least, does NOT take place in Los Angeles but a fictional city (I don't believe the intended city itself is clear in OT, is it?)

--Gridbugs feature prominently in Betrayal; they're not even mentioned in T:L. Now, if they were indeed due to the Isos as Clu conjectures, then yes, there wouldn't be rampant infestations since Clu got rid of the Isos, but to not mention them at all??

--Clu creation: again, this is nitpicky, but dialogue is a bit different, visuals too. Can't say this is a big concern for me, but if you want to get really down and dirty with the differences...

--Method of forming lightcycles seems slightly different. Design of Tron's cycle is different than the cycles we see in T:L as well, but then we never see whatever cycle Tron would have had, so it could be his is just of a slightly different design. I'm not necessarily willing to call it a discrepancy.

--In Betrayal, Alan says to Flynn, "You go off the grid for days at a time; no one can contact you. I can't find you." This sort of seems to imply Flynn's in the Grid for days at a time (if he was just at home, Alan could call him, right?). But in T:L, he tells Sam the portal can only stay open for a millicycle-- about 8 hours on-Grid, or about ten minutes in the real world. Not several real-world days. But Alan's words are sort of ambiguous, so who knows.

--Emergence of the Isos. In Betrayal, Flynn/Clu call Tron and show him a video of the first Iso emerging from the Sea, wearing a regular black Grid suit. In T:L, Flynn and Clu see a whole bunch of them walking from (somewhere), dressed in primitive robes.

--Jordan's parents seem to be caring for Sam in Betrayal; in T:L it seems to be Flynn's parents and Jordan's are never mentioned.

--In Betrayal, Flynn leaves Encom to try to restore some order to his personal life. In T:L, they make it look like he was with the company until he disappeared.

--Tron somehow escapes from Clu in Betrayal. It's been argued that in T:L, Flynn doesn't actually know what happened to Tron. I kind of find it hard to believe he somehow escaped only to be captured again later (and I find it much better for the storyline that he was taken by Clu right then), but I think that's the direction they're taking with the animated series, so I guess that's the way they mean it to be.

--In Betrayal, the batons seem to be used as weapons somehow. At least, Tron's often shown with a disc in one hand and a baton in the other, and in the short part that shows the betrayal by Clu, Clu's guards are attacking with batons, seeming to have one in each hand. We know from T:L that the batons can be formed into swords, staves, etc., so this makes sense, but in Betrayal they're rarely actually shown taking other forms. And most programs in T:L, inc. Tronzler, aren't shown to use them as weapons at all.

--In T:L, it's implied that Clu simply goes bad because he's on a power trip and sees the Isos as imperfection, and he attacks Flynn for little reason. In Betrayal, it seems to be shown that the Isos did indeed bring some sort of instability to the system and Clu is angry because he is the only one trying to fix it, and Flynn's rarely there (and when he is, he actually doesn't do anything). Clu seems far more justified in Betrayal.

I'm probably missing stuff, but it's getting late and I'm tired.



(Betrayal question. In the part where Lora comes to tell Flynn she's moving, he's on the phone with Jordan when she walks in, and all is well. Lora's not there five minutes before Jordan's calling back, and the secretary says, "she says it's urgent." What's so urgent? She just talked to him ten minutes ago and nothing was happening. Right after this it cuts to the Grid, and when we get back to the real world, it's obviously a totally different time. What on earth was so urgent, and why put that in there unless it was something worth telling us about?)

Kat Wrote:Realized after I posted in the other thread that it makes a lot more sense to make a separate new one. So: Kaisergrendel Wrote: Kat Wrote:Do we also want deviations between Betrayal and OT, or just T:L? Might as well do both and Evolution as well Well, I've not played Evolution, so I'll have to leave that to someone else. Okay: Betrayal vs. T:L: --The prologue of Betrayal refers to "Flynn's story begins in the world of the Users, a city of angels and lights." We've debated before that T:L, at least, does NOT take place in Los Angeles but a fictional city (I don't believe the intended city itself is clear in OT, is it?) --Gridbugs feature prominently in Betrayal; they're not even mentioned in T:L. Now, if they were indeed due to the Isos as Clu conjectures, then yes, there wouldn't be rampant infestations since Clu got rid of the Isos, but to not mention them at all?? --Clu creation: again, this is nitpicky, but dialogue is a bit different, visuals too. Can't say this is a big concern for me, but if you want to get really down and dirty with the differences... --Method of forming lightcycles seems slightly different. Design of Tron's cycle is different than the cycles we see in T:L as well, but then we never see whatever cycle Tron would have had, so it could be his is just of a slightly different design. I'm not necessarily willing to call it a discrepancy. --In Betrayal, Alan says to Flynn, "You go off the grid for days at a time; no one can contact you. I can't find you." This sort of seems to imply Flynn's in the Grid for days at a time (if he was just at home, Alan could call him, right?). But in T:L, he tells Sam the portal can only stay open for a millicycle-- about 8 hours on-Grid, or about ten minutes in the real world. Not several real-world days. But Alan's words are sort of ambiguous, so who knows. --Emergence of the Isos. In Betrayal, Flynn/Clu call Tron and show him a video of the first Iso emerging from the Sea, wearing a regular black Grid suit. In T:L, Flynn and Clu see a whole bunch of them walking from (somewhere), dressed in primitive robes. --Jordan's parents seem to be caring for Sam in Betrayal; in T:L it seems to be Flynn's parents and Jordan's are never mentioned. --In Betrayal, Flynn leaves Encom to try to restore some order to his personal life. In T:L, they make it look like he was with the company until he disappeared. --Tron somehow escapes from Clu in Betrayal. It's been argued that in T:L, Flynn doesn't actually know what happened to Tron. I kind of find it hard to believe he somehow escaped only to be captured again later (and I find it much better for the storyline that he was taken by Clu right then), but I think that's the direction they're taking with the animated series, so I guess that's the way they mean it to be. --In Betrayal, the batons seem to be used as weapons somehow. At least, Tron's often shown with a disc in one hand and a baton in the other, and in the short part that shows the betrayal by Clu, Clu's guards are attacking with batons, seeming to have one in each hand. We know from T:L that the batons can be formed into swords, staves, etc., so this makes sense, but in Betrayal they're rarely actually shown taking other forms. And most programs in T:L, inc. Tronzler, aren't shown to use them as weapons at all. --In T:L, it's implied that Clu simply goes bad because he's on a power trip and sees the Isos as imperfection, and he attacks Flynn for little reason. In Betrayal, it seems to be shown that the Isos did indeed bring some sort of instability to the system and Clu is angry because he is the only one trying to fix it, and Flynn's rarely there (and when he is, he actually doesn't do anything). Clu seems far more justified in Betrayal. I'm probably missing stuff, but it's getting late and I'm tired. (Betrayal question. In the part where Lora comes to tell Flynn she's moving, he's on the phone with Jordan when she walks in, and all is well. Lora's not there five minutes before Jordan's calling back, and the secretary says, "she says it's urgent." What's so urgent? She just talked to him ten minutes ago and nothing was happening. Right after this it cuts to the Grid, and when we get back to the real world, it's obviously a totally different time. What on earth was so urgent, and why put that in there unless it was something worth telling us about?)

If you had played Evolution, you'd see even more discrepancies. The character Ophelia, for example, is named Radia in Evolution, and they're supposedly the same character (same dress and all).

As far as the light cycle design goes, there are different generations of light cycles. The original Tron had Gen 1, Flynn's in Legacy was Gen 2. The only Gen 3 seen is seen in the PSP version of Evolution (which is an entirely different storyline and game to the PS3, Xbox, and PC versions) which is a sleeker version of Gen 2, starting to lead into Gen 4. Gen 4 is the one in Betrayal and the other Evolution games. Gen 5 is the predominantly featured light cycle in Legacy, being the latest and most advanced of all the previous light cycle designs.

The sad thing about the film, the graphic novel, and the game, is that they didn't have a cohesive partnership to make sure all the threads wouldn't be dangling between them. There are hints to each other, such as Quorra mentioning Anon (the protagonist from Evolution) when she discusses The Purge with Sam.---"A sympathetic program smuggled me out of the city."---The three sources are all supposed to be canon, from what I've read, but all offer slightly different variations on the same event.

What I do typically is when it comes to the three storylines conflicting, I just go with what the movie said happened.

For Uprising, I guess Clu either thought Tron was dead (which doesn't make sense) or just left him for dead, assuming he would derez. I'm not sure how they'll justify it, but we'll have to wait for the series to show us.

Kaisergrendel Wrote:Thanks for doing this, Kat. My own contribution on this would be (as I mentioned in another thread) Zuse's utter lack of differentiation in T:L and Betrayal, where he was supposed to be in his normal persona and not the same flamboyant bar-owning self he is in T:L. They completely ignored the fact that Zuse became Castor to disguise his former identity.

So if you act like Castor, but where the same clothes as Zuse, people would think they are two different people? I dont think we are that stupid!

Kaisergrendel Wrote: trekking95 Wrote: Kaisergrendel Wrote:Thanks for doing this, Kat. My own contribution on this would be (as I mentioned in another thread) Zuse's utter lack of differentiation in T:L and Betrayal, where he was supposed to be in his normal persona and not the same flamboyant bar-owning self he is in T:L. They completely ignored the fact that Zuse became Castor to disguise his former identity. So if you act like Castor, but where the same clothes as Zuse, people would think they are two different people? I dont think we are that stupid! Exactly! Not only that, he still retained ownership of End of Line, the same mannerisms and the same accent. I wonder, if Sam started calling himself a different name (he did identify himself as Sam Flynn), would all the programs suddenly forget that he's a user??

Programs must be dumb! Or there are 10 other programs that look like Castor but just act different!

Or:
Flynn couldn't get to the portal as it was almost closed (as Flynn said to Tron when Clu attacked them), but he fought for the ISOs for a long time and Clu fed on his resistance, etc.

I would have to read Betrayal to know what you mean!

(Betrayal question. In the part where Lora comes to tell Flynn she's moving, he's on the phone with Jordan when she walks in, and all is well. Lora's not there five minutes before Jordan's calling back, and the secretary says, "she says it's urgent." What's so urgent? She just talked to him ten minutes ago and nothing was happening. Right after this it cuts to the Grid, and when we get back to the real world, it's obviously a totally different time. What on earth was so urgent, and why put that in there unless it was something worth telling us about?)


I've been hoping for a Tie-in with Tron and, the now Disney owned, Marvel Avengers comics. I would like to think that S.H.I.E.L.D., unbeknownst to Flynn, has known about the GRID and is working with Dr. Laura Baines to head off any future problems or dangers.. I see her working with Agent Coulson, or another S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent. I would love to see Quorra, at the end credits of The Avengers Movie, as a new avenger, introduced by Agent Coulson. I think the Tie-in would help build the New Tron Franchise. I know it is a stretch for die-hard comics fans, but I think it could work. Any takers.

First of all, I want to say there are some very good (and interesting) points raised here regarding the film & graphic novel, and having read through them all I would like to offer a few opinions on how I see the various points that have been raised here:

DuMont in the prologue:

*The way I see it, the thing to bear in mind is that in many of the key events he describes (like the Lightcycle game & rebuilding the damaged Recognizer) DuMont WASN’T EVEN THERE when those events took place-he WASN’T PRESENT at the time, so he would probably have to take Flynn’s own word for most of it (which, has been already pointed out, could be leaning towards his own ego somewhat).

Gridbugs feature prominently in Betrayal:

* I think there’s two possibilities here-(a) the Gridbugs STILL actually exist but are simply not seen in Legacy, or (b) over the last 20 years Clu had them hunted down to the point of extinction has part of his plan for the perfect system (between the two I personally prefer this theory).
Has we all know, Clu can be brutally efficient in that sense….

Clu’s Creation:

* Given what we know about Clu’s existence, I think it’s pretty straight forward really-Flynn designs the basic design template for Clu at his computer terminal in the arcade cellar (has seen in Betrayal) and when he’s satisfied he enters the Grid & and simply finishes the final details of him and activates him (has seen in Legacy), therefore making both versions accurate.
In other words, in Betrayal he was pretty much doing a ‘rough sketch’ of what he wanted Clu to look like/be like at his computer terminal, and in Legacy we see that he’s actually happy with the ‘sketch’ that he did & has now built him (in front of that ‘mirror’ thing that comes out of the floor).

Tron’s Lightcycle is differant:

* Like DevourTheLiving has pointed out, so far I’ve seen at least four different variations of the Lightcycles, each representing a different point in its overall evolution from 1982 to Legacy. I can only assume that the one that Tron has in Betrayal represents a particular ’model’ at some point over the 28 year time period.

Alan says “You go off the Grid for days at a time. No one can contact you. I can‘t find you”:

* Reading that in the story, I’ve always assumed that it was just a FIGURE OF SPEECH & nothing else. I don’t think he meant that LITERALLY-to me, it was has if he was politely saying “Come on, Kevin! Your running a multi-million dollar international company! Stop letting your mind wonder into a day-dream & pay attention to what’s going on around you”.
I think Alan was just saying that to try and keep Flynn’s feet on the ground seeing how he seems to be acting increasingly odd has time goes by….

Emergence of the ISOs:

* Betrayal states that the ISOs started emerging from the Sea, and that Flynn was informed of it.
The way I see it, to have one previously unknown life form appear out of nowhere like that would have been quite a surprise to everyone (a ‘miracle’ he called it).
But to see HUNDREDS of them appear EN MASSE out of no where in a HUGE GROUP? I don’t think anyone on the Grid was really expecting THAT to happen, least of all him (“You seeing this?”). In my opinion, that look of surprise on his face when he sees the group walking towards him isn’t because it’s the first time he’s seen them, it’s because he’s never seen SO MANY OF THEM TOGETHER at once.

Like I said, these are how I interpreted the points mentioned, and are my own personal opinion on them, so please feel free to put down what you think yourselves.

There is, however, one more point I would like to raise:

At the end of the first film Flynn defeats the MCP by jumping into it, and in the process gets beamed back into our world.
But in the novel DuMont says that Flynn had given him the information about his time there in the Tron world.
I want to know how did he do this? Did he at some point after the first film go back into that world to find him & give him the information in person?

One thing that has really bugged me about Betrayal is the portrayal of Tron. He's easily my favorite character-- he's just an all-around stand-up guy. (Despite the fact that he's sort of a Mary-Sue, I still like him. He's the sort of Mary-Sue you can sort of appreciate, just 'cause sometimes your heroes gotta be heroes.) In Betrayal, they show him as sort of...apathetic, I guess. Bad stuff is happening, and Tron, who've we've come to expect is the sort of dude who takes action and solves problems and rights wrongs, just keeps saying "wait for Flynn. Wait for Flynn." Even when Clu's de-rezzing programs in the Games-- something Tron is shown as thinking to be wrong-- he still does nothing. He won't de-rez anyone himself, it's true, and he does confront Clu about it as soon as Clu finds out about it, but Clu pretty much gives him a mini-smackdown of "it's not going to change" and Tron just leaves without another word, and we see no evidence of him fighting it anymore; he doesn't even refuse to participate in the Games as a sort of boycott.

I am quite disappointed in the dude.

Kat Wrote:One thing that has really bugged me about Betrayal is the portrayal of Tron. He's easily my favorite character-- he's just an all-around stand-up guy. (Despite the fact that he's sort of a Mary-Sue, I still like him. He's the sort of Mary-Sue you can sort of appreciate, just 'cause sometimes your heroes gotta be heroes.) In Betrayal, they show him as sort of...apathetic, I guess. Bad stuff is happening, and Tron, who've we've come to expect is the sort of dude who takes action and solves problems and rights wrongs, just keeps saying "wait for Flynn. Wait for Flynn." Even when Clu's de-rezzing programs in the Games-- something Tron is shown as thinking to be wrong-- he still does nothing. He won't de-rez anyone himself, it's true, and he does confront Clu about it as soon as Clu finds out about it, but Clu pretty much gives him a mini-smackdown of "it's not going to change" and Tron just leaves without another word, and we see no evidence of him fighting it anymore; he doesn't even refuse to participate in the Games as a sort of boycott. I am quite disappointed in the dude.

I remember someone suggesting before that Tron physically couldn't beat Clu, and maybe the writer had that same idea when he wrote Betrayal. I would think he'd still resist as much as possible, but perhaps he couldn't do anything to Clu himself, so his only option was to wait for Flynn.