programs feel stupor when deprived of power

in tron 1 the MCP was hoarding power and one of
the forms of that power was the water which
tron or ram describes as a pure source.

programs in a stuporous state can still
perform their basic functions.

programs can be knocked unconscious (ram when hit by the tank fire)

not sure if programs are familiar with the
state unconsciousness tho. (i expect they should be)

energy drinks can renew a programs sense of purpose (from novelization)

programs can partly derezz (half-face in recognizer upon sams entry
to the grid) tho i cant tell if its a fresh wound or not

sipping liquid requires lungs since
sipping involves creating negative
air pressure inside the mouth.

there are no children on the grid
the concept of family does not exist on the grid

love can exist between programs tho i assume offspring
love would be an alien concept. quorra would be
fascinated with children (i want the third movie
to show this)

the novelization mentions yori having her
own quarters so work time and private time
probably does exist. not sure if there is a fixed
work time

also castors bar seems to be a programs
way of relaxation.(non-work related)

programs can wear skirts (castors' waitresses)
raincoats (gem)
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Wendy Carlos composed the music for TRON she didn't play Yori.. The actress Cindy Morgan played Yori.

Programs did have hair. Dumont and the other tower guardians had beards. Flynn passes by some Inoperative Data Pushers, one of which was a woman with a a kind of buffont hair style.

And in the deleted "love scene" Yori de-rezzed her suit and rezed onto herself a complete different shimmering dress as seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nED_W7NA2Vs

LWSrocks Wrote:Well, I don't think they... relieve themselves. (You know, crap, whizz, etc.) Their "clothing" seems more like their skin, not a suit they wear over their skin, as implied when the sirens "put the suit on" Sam. It looked like his skin was turning into a suit, so they obviously don't have genitals. (Also why I don't believe there is intercourse in the program world, because I can't see it working in the world of the computer and because the programs don't have genitals, but they might do something a la Avatar, in which Na'vi have sex with their hair.) However, it also seems like if this were the case the sirens might have found his skin to be odd, don't you think?

Then how does Flynn change clothes, though? And Yori too, in the deleted scene from the original.

Damn, I know we've discussed the clothes in about ten other threads and naturally I haven't a clue which ones. Butt I think we ultimately decided that yes, the suits are removable. I personally favor the idea that they're not, because IMO it makes more sense (and therefore I think Sam should've arrived already in a circuitry suit, etc.) but I think the general consensus here was that no, the clothing isn't actually a "part" of the program like their skin would be.

Okay, hang on, let me go back and edit the original post so this turns into one of the "reference" threads I mentioned.

LWSrocks Wrote:I also believe programs sleep. Like they are rebooting. When a program isn't running right on your computer, you reboot it, and when you open it up again it works better. At least with Browsers. When they stop responding, you close them (I.E., they go to sleep) and then open them up again. (They woke up!) Which brings me to an off-topic question... how would a browser be represented in the grid?

Oh, I never thought of it as rebooting.

Not sure how a lot of programs would be represented, actually. In my fanfic I have a program, Britannica, who is--wait for it--an encyclopedia. I haven't decided how I'll represent her. She has a library of sorts, but I haven't decided what it'll look like in the grid. If it's actually physical, like books and videos and such, that seems a bit retro, but it's not like she'd have a computer terminal in there, right? Another I made up is Chron--the system clock. Again I don't have it all worked out, but she keeps track of "Grid time" *and* "real life" time--so she acts as a sort of wake-up call too--"hey users, it's 7 a.m. in the real world and you've gotta head out to work soon" and such. There is a lot in the Grid world that isn't told to us that anyone making any sort of fan art kinda has to make up as they go along (which is part of the reason for this thread, actually).

LWSrocks Wrote:I think they might sweat as a way of displaying they are, overheating almost. For example, on an Android phone, if you have alot of apps running at the same time (You can't really close apps, they are always running, you have to use Task Killers to get them to shut off) then the phone begins to run alot slower and the quality of certain apps are reduced. This may be like sweating for a program.

That I'm not so sure about. After all, it's the device overheating, not the programs themselves. You could sorta say it's the programs who are taxing the device! Unless you wanted to make it akin to, say, being in a gym with a bunch of fans during a basketball game--that many bodies, some of them sweaty, packed in there raises the heat in the whole place.

LWSrocks Wrote:I think they could also get diseases, but it would be in the form of a literal virus infecting their functions, like Thorne is a virus. It would be like the equivalent to something in the real world like a cold or a cancer depending on how many functions the virus would take over- the MCP could be considered a "virus" in that respect. Thorne would probably be one of the worst deseases in the real world, as it takes over all of the program's functions. Clu's rectification would be a disease as well.

This is how I saw it also. I think I mentioned in another thread that, for example, programs don't have physical disabilities normally, like even say wearing glasses (do not know whether users-in-the-system bring any physical deficiencies with them. At first I thought no, but then I realized they might, if the copy is an exact copy why wouldn't my myopia--which is related to shape of the eyeballs/lens--come with me?). So if a program needed glasses, it would mean there was something wrong in their coding--whether it's a virus, or just a bad piece of coding. (this, besides the obvious movie aesthetic, would also explain why nobody in the Grid is overweight. An overweight program might be, say, Internet Explorer, loaded down with too much unneeded crap or something).

LWSrocks Wrote:Now here's my questions for you- what about things like the phases of matter? Would there be gas on the grid? We know there are solid things and liquid things obviously, so how do those translate into computer-related terms? I will say this: In Kevin Flynn's safehouse, you see a weird digital substance emanating from wood in a fireplace, so that's supposed to be digital fire- but what is it in the computer?

Well, if there are solids and liquids in the Grid, then it makes sense to me that there would also be gases. As far as the fire...it was implied in other threads that Flynn would've created several things in the safe house (such as the books, etc.) and that the food is an avatar for real food, though it's really just the same energy as the drinks. It makes sense to me that a user might create simulations of things from "back home." My OC in my fanfic does this extensively--Tron comments on the "hardwood floor" in her flat, she insists on simulating a lot of energy "food" (heh, imagine programs tasting hummus for the first time...), etc. In this case, the smoke from the "fire" may not be an actual function of the fire per se, but perhaps it was built it because that's the way one expects a fire to act, so to be authentic... (so then the other question is...is it real fire? Is something actually burning? Or is it just a visual effect?)

zordmaker Wrote:Yori was a bit like someone who was created with no childhood, somehow attracted to Tron but not knowing why or understanding these attractions

Sounds like love and attraction in the real world to me! Of course, you could argue that if Yori/Tron had personalities similar to Lora/Alan, then it makes sense they'd also be compatible in the Grid world. (the thing that throws this off is that I don't understand why the personalities would be the same except that the user is the creator of the program. Yori's function is similar to Lora's in real life so I could perhaps see it there, but unless Alan is also heavy into military/law enforcement, seems to me Tron would be quite different)

zordmaker Wrote:In #1 programs (and users, for that matter) are effectively nude, the circuit pattern they have is their own being, they can't change it. It's not a suit, it's their basic form. They can drape things over it but they can't change it. There's no hair, it's a uniform look they all have. There's no sex, so there's no sexual organs on them so sorry, there's not much exciting in the Tron universe there. I would like to think that underneath those high tech suits, T:L programs and users look just like the ones from #1.

OMG they're like Barbie!!!

Traahn Wrote:The last thing I'd want is for Disney to start exploring these real-world things more in the next (or any future) Tron movie. To make programs go to the bathroom, bruise, die, starve, sweat, have babies, cook, clean, vacuum, wash dishes, go to school, go to the store, change clothes, blow dry their hair, put makeup on, etc. is just diluting the Tron property and making it hit way too close to home.

I don't want Disney to deal with it, but it's something to think about, especially for anyone writing fanfic (and especially if that fanfic deals with users in the Grid, because face it, if you showed up there, you would definitely be thinking about how things from real life would transition--do I have to eat and if not what happens when I crave pizza? Am I going to get tired and what do I do about that? Am I going to break my leg trying to learn to ride a lightcycle?). We do spend time here wondering what it would be like if we made it to the Grid--what would be our function? What vehicles would we drive? What would we say to our user? So I think it's valid to consider the biological questions as well.

there is wind (sams recognizer ride shows his
jacket flapping)

the disks in tron 1 do not follow the rules of
gravity. the disks in tron legacy still do not
exactly follow the rules of gravity. there is some other
force compelling the disks to return to the
owner.

a program can be killed with his own disk
(sams deflected the disk of his second opponent
killing the opponent with his own disk)

fear exist

grieving exist

the concept of privacy exists (tron 1 yori's quarters)

i wonder if the repairman mentality exist.
with objects like lightcycles and jets solidifying
out of thin air. i doubt they do maintenance on
these objects. the repairman, inventor, creator
mentality must be rare, assuming it exists.

rumors exists so the spreading of unverified
stories exists.

jarvis: greeting programs. oh what an occassion
we have here before us. Because your rumors are true...

Emm... fire can't exist in a vacuum. That doesn't mean that heat can't. Without heat there is no energy, and with no energy, matter theoretically ceases to exist - which according to science, it can't.

Kat Wrote:I would love to say "dude, I SO don't want fire inside my computer," but I also SO don't really want thunderstorms inside my computer....yeah, um, too late for that. Uh, Disney?? And...precisely. Fire =/= heat. I'm pretty sure there ISN'T any fire in my computer, but I need a cooling fan for it nonetheless. (I still am really entirely unable to understand the concept of the Sea of Simulation/Outlands, I admit it. Non-digital areas in my computer? Huh? Wouldn't that be like...there being non-biological components in my body [medical prostheses aside]? "Oh hey, I have this great aluminum liver!")

I was under the impression that the Sea of Simulation/Outlands were like the free space areas of a hard drive. And the SoS would be like a drive that had been completely cleansed of all data - and the Outlands are more like a section that contains corrupted data that has been deleted but not formatted... something like that. I always saw the Grid has being all data-storage in a physical form - not all the different parts of a computer.

Okay here my thoughts on the subject:L
Gravity works different in the Grid like things can levitate as ships, recognizers, steps (in the End of the Line Club and Clu's ship), the light discs (explained in Evolution)

There are gases in the grid from Fog, gust of air from landing of ships and corrosion (from Evolution with a Disc mod and from the Infected)

There are concepts of organizations as in Factions mentioned in Legacy from an African-American program and in Evolution

Concepts of religion is very prominent in both films as Users are viewed as Gods

Light energy can be used as ammo in the form of lasers from Castor's cane and from the light jets

Kat Wrote:But how do you view them, then? I mean, do images pop into your brain, or? I was sort of leaning toward a data bank that could be pulled up on a screen, maybe...

I don't even know if that'd be an answerable question were it real. The brain can adapt to practically any kind of information that is sent to it. For example, if you were to put on a pair of lenses that flip your vision upside down within a couple of weeks, your brain would automatically invert the image for you so that nothing seems off. We've also had success with replacing a human eye with an electronic camera, and after a while, the mind was able to make sense of the data and convert it into something that could be called an image. I think being on the grid would be the same way. You might not even have something that in any sense could be considered a body - think of something like the astral plane, where spirits float around and are essentially energy-based entities. How that abstract dimension is interpreted is pretty much up to the individual.on line abortion pill misoprostol dose abortion medical abortion pill online

I don't even know if that'd be an answerable question were it real. The brain can adapt to practically any kind of information that is sent to it. For example, if you were to put on a pair of lenses that flip your vision upside down within a couple of weeks, your brain would automatically invert the image for you so that nothing seems off. We've also had success with replacing a human eye with an electronic camera, and after a while, the mind was able to make sense of the data and convert it into something that could be called an image. I think being on the grid would be the same way. You might not even have something that in any sense could be considered a body - think of something like the astral plane, where spirits float around and are essentially energy-based entities. How that abstract dimension is interpreted is pretty much up to the individual. Right, but it's still using some sort of visual, right? Whereas LWSRocks' idea almost seems to utilize knowledge. And there is a difference, of course. Naturally my brain knows what a horse looks like, and I can close my eyes and bring up a mental image of one. So technically we could say, yes, as long as the knowledge is loaded to the program, they could imagine a horse. But that is still different than if someone showed me a picture of a horse, and I daresay it would be much clearer for me to "see" the horse to be able to look at a physical picture rather than a mental one (and also possibly more accurate as I'd only be seeing what is actually there, rather than my imagination or lack of correct memory making errors. Whether this would happen with a program who would have absolutely no knowledge of a horse aside from what the encyclopedia shows and therefore had no other memories/images to draw from and create possible inaccuracies, I dunno). So I'd think that would be the difference between information loaded to the disc, as opposed to actually looking at a physical picture? Or are we totally talking past each other? Because your post also to me suggests something way more "out there" and in fact deeper than the topic of how a program would use an encyclopedia....and I'm not sure if you intended it...which is the idea that it's all in your mind, man. There ARE really no program bodies in the Grid, it's just that everyone is having the same mass hallucination of sorts and its their mind/consciousness doing the work...well, much like the Matrix, I guess. So then that brings up...what DOES make program X see something the same way program Y does? We're getting a bit into philosophy here with that one, like the old "does blue look the same to you as it does to me? How do we KNOW it does?" question, but, yeah... (Okay, can't think about that too much or my brain hurts. Just spent the past couple hours fighting with NoteEdit to try to notate and subsequently transpose a piece of music I need for an audition this weekend, and I still gotta figure out how to print. [If anybody is familiar with NoteEdit and printing from LilyPond, feel free to PM me, lol)] Just had some coffee and maybe in a bit my mind will be working again. So maybe more later.)

That odd difference of appearance was one of the things I thought would better explain the vast visual changes between Tron and Tron:Legacy.

I think some of the things that were introduced in T:L though did the franchise a degree of disservice. As much as is possible with such a bizarre concept, TRON made a lot more sense than T:L did. Programs seem more or less without original functions in T:L and more or less just all run around and do whatever they want, seemingly all the time. None of them seem to have a sense of duty to user requests.

Removing that though, if we just break it down to basics... we know that computers run on energy. That's how data moves around. It's all non-physical by our standards. No solid matter to speak of. It's all magnetic fields and tiny on/off switches. And since we know that Sam's body disappears in front of the laser, he's being converted into a form of energy that can navigate that realm. So right then and there, all of our understanding of how we interpret information flies out the window. We're in a metaphysical universe. We don't have eyes to see with, or technically, even a brain to process with. We're on another plane of consciousness. This probably explains why easy-going Flynn has turned into a Zen-master during his time trapped there - he's trying to re-understand the nature of existence.

This is why I think some of the more mundane things in T:L confuse the issue further. Such as the food at the table or the books on the shelf. In an energy-based universe, how we acquire what we need ought to be more abstract. Just like lightcycles essentially pop in out of nowhere... there's no need for them to be permanent. Energy can easily be converted from one form to another whenever needed. TRON, originally was more like Magic in a computer universe than sci-fi technology. T:L went the other way with it, and now Recognizers have to 'mechanically' make sense and have rockets to keep them in the air.

On something like an encyclopedia... why would there even need to be one? That's where the paradox comes in. There are programs who have the purpose of relaying information to us on sites such as dictionary.com and soforth, so why would such a program need to read a dictionary? That's just as redundant as, say, a guy who runs a car parts store, having to go to another mechanic to buy a part for his car.

I didn't read all the replies so far (sorry!!) so if this has been said ten times, please feel free to throw all kinds of objects at me.

Steven Lisberger, as I recall, pretty much said the programs are sexual. At least I know he said that he had hoped to "explore their sexuality further" in a sequel. I guess he must have been hoping to get away from Disney or something, I don't know. Obviously, that didn't happen for him, but he created this world, so I guess the programs have sex of some kind. And the deleted scenes from the original lay out that Tron and Yori are having sex as plain as you can without actually showing the deed itself.

And as far as Sam's suit goes, I did not interpret it at all as his skin becoming a suit. To me it looked like his skin was being covered by the suit, which I think is exactly how they intended it to look.
Plus the programs all have several outfit changes. Clu changes from his robe to the light cycle grid/disc wars suit. Why would he bother putting the robe on over his suit if it weren't removable? He wouldn't.

In my opinion (and I pretty sure I'm on the same wavelength as Lisberger here) the programs are unable to reproduce, but have the same bodies as regular humans. This makes sense considering that Flynn modeled them all after human beings, some of them are even exact copies of their users! Plus, Flynn is kind of a free-thinker and a hippy. He wanted the programs to enjoy life and I really think that he would have wanted them to be able to have a sexual life and I'm not just saying that to be gross or anything, but Flynn doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would be uptight about the human body or sex. In fact, I can see him being exactly the sort of man who would think that all aspects of life are beautiful and he is trying to create a perfect and beautiful world. Why would someone who thinks like he does want to deprive his little utopia of one of the few completely natural good things we humans have going on?
The programs seem to have a limited, but functioning array of human emotions and it seems that Flynn wanted them to be that way, so it makes sense to me that the programs would be able to experience some level of emotional/sexual love and that Flynn would encourage them in that.
Sex doesn't have to be gross or pornographic and I think that Flynn would be pretty happy if he could create a "free and open" system where love is also free and open without shame and guilt. Like I said, he strikes me as a hippy. That is probably mostly because he is played by Jeff Bridges who is pretty much the king of relaxed stoners, but it is what it is.

Anyway, that is my take on it. The more "non-Disney" side of it. Ha. Also, sorry that was so long.where to buy abortion pill abortion types buy abortion pill online