TheReelTodd Wrote: So to those who were let down by this film, all I can say is that you should not have gone in with high expectations. You probably set yourself up for a big let down in doing so, without even meaning to.

SPOILERS FOLLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!




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Yes, that is exactly my point Todd. Thanks for backing me up on that


Which brings me to another point on the film that I would like to discuss. Still has to do with Anakin's fall.

During a talk with Emperor Palpatine, he alludes VERY BRIEFLY to the fact that he and his mentor... Darth (somethingorother) found a way to manipulate the mediclorians (sp?) to bring about life spontaneously.

Now, to me this means that they basically brought about Anakin, from the get go. Remember in Ep I where his mother says to Qi-Gon "There was no father".

So to me this means Anakin was basically engineered for them and for the Dark Side. Anakin wanted to be good... but just couldn't be. It wasn't his destiny.

Now, wouldn't that have been a MUCH darker, more exiting premise for his fall than "I'm not going to let happen to you, what happened to my Mommy!", which is basically what it turned into?

If done right it wouldn't have been cheesy at all. I think the concept behind it was pretty interesting, a whole lot better than what it turned out to be.

Imagine... you've been "bred" to be the key element in the downfall of the Jedi. You WANT to be good, you WANT to fall in love and have children and whatever. But you can't and your destiny is to kill and destroy those who took you in as family.

How deep and dark would that have been? As it was, he turned to the dark side because he was promised some "power" that could keep Padme alive. *shrugs*.... seems like if there really were that power then the jedi or anakin would have known about it anyway.

It just didn't seem real enough for me to drive someone to kill every jedi including children, when not 45 minutes before he was cooing to Obi Wan about how much he loved him, basically.

There is every reason to believe that Palpatine is lying to Anakin, or at least exaggerating to him, about Darth Plagus's powers.

1. In the ROTJ novelization, there are clear comments from Obi-Wan concerning Vader's consumption by the Darkside, and said, "Anakin was betrayed with a lie." I believe this is the very one.

2. The very instant Anakin had turned, stunned what he had done, he pledged his loyalty to Palpatine, and put forth his obvious single priority, saving Padme's life. Did you hear Palpatine's next comments? He admitted he had no idea how to save Padme, but gave Anakin a measly assurance that as soon as the two of them figured it out, they'd save her. Anakin learned only at that moment the scope of his being duped. But it was too late to go back and I guess he set out to make the best of his decision.

At any rate, this assumption that the Sith concieved Anakin is just that, an assumption.abortion pills online abortion pill online purchase cytotec abortion

Perhaps, but concidering just how patheticly Palpatine treats his apprentices, it's less far fetched that he'd simply had lied about the whole thing instead of revealed a peek of a grand knowledge as bait. In terms of likelihoods, it's far more likely he lied about the whole thing than only part. It was obviously custom fit to Anakin's weakness and seems a bit hard to believe that Palpatine just so happened to have developed exactly what Anakin truely needed. However, that's just percpeptions, and Star Wars isn't exactly a universe of the likely. Either way, Anakin was lied to, either in subject or willingess to share it. Or, like I already mentioned, it was at least exaggerated.

However, if Palpatine indeed did have this power, why would he care about how young his apprentice is? He seemed delighted to loose his old Dooku and get Anakin, as he said being "much younger". If he could defeat the aging process, why did that matter? And why did he get so much older looking in ROTJ? I think the whole thing was bunk, personally.

Unlike a lot of fans, I don't see Palpatine as all that particularly powerful in terms of being a Force user. He was far more brilliant in a tactician and crimes of opportunity. His gifts were a lot closer to reality than the supernatural. That's not to say he wasn't a dangerous physical combatant, but he won a lot of gambles where he threw it all down on the line. It's my opinion that Mace truely won the battle with Palpatine, but Palpatine took a gamble that Anakin would return, and perhaps invisioned it partly, and threw himself at a powerful opponent in Mace knowing his soon-to-arrive-new-apprentice would save him if need be. Had Palpatine miscalculated and Anakin not showed up, Palpatine would have died, I think. It happens exactly that way later, and Palpatine's inflamed confidence looses out to Luke and Anakin's return, and he finally croaks because of it.

However, this is just how I see it. It is a magnificent story though. I'm very, VERY pleased with the new trilogy and the saga as a whole. Lots of fuel for imaginative discussions.

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I think that the movie was great but a few of the parts were horrible. Anakin's turn to the darkside was the biggest. It didn't seem rushed but rather like Anakin was just a robot with an on and off switch. Like the Dooku scene. Anakin shows through his actions and words that he has mastered control of his emotions. When it comes time for Anakin to do the right thing and not kill Dooku, Anakin kills him with a simple command from Sidious. If Anakin lost control as the fight went on or Dooku made a comment about, say, Anakin's mother's death, causing Anakin to loose his temper then I would find it believable. You could see the struggle when Luke was before the emperor but not in any of Anakin’s confrontations. Anakin was in his right mind and Siddious says "Do it!" and it's as if Siddious takes over Anakin's mind.

This leads me to another thing. If you are in Dooku's position and Siddious is obviously betraying you by telling Anakin to finish you off, are you going to remain silent?! Heck no! You'd use the force to push Anakin back or speak up with some line like, "Anakin no! It's him! The Dark Lord of the Sith you've been looking for! He's been manipulating both of us! Please spare me!" Or something other than just looking like Anakin just cut out your vocal cords and legs and not your hands? It was just too cheesy.

Also when Anakin knows that Palpy is a Sith Master he still trusts what he says even though he's been lied to all this time. Even though he's seen the death and destruction caused by this man. No way can anyone convince me that Anakin would turn like he did. Maybe if Padme already died and Siddious made it look like the Jedi were to blame. Like when Padme fell out of the Attack Gunship and Obi Wan wouldn’t turn around to make sure she was o.k. It was like Anakin’s all no this is wrong one minute and I’m all sith the next. Just too unbelievable.

Also the Jedi philosophy. The just let go and get over it attitude. And the only sith believe in absolutes comment followed by an absolute comment that Anakin is lost. Among other conflicting heartless dialog from the Jedi. They were suppose to be the heroes, the ones who comforted and built up fellow Jedi. Instead they dish out heartless babble that just encourages darkness. Also they manipulate and use Anakin for there own means and Mace feels he has the right to break the Jedi code but not Anakin. The kind of do as I say not as I do approach. This is what made the movie dark. I kept trying to find a character in the story that I could use as an example to my daughters of how one should act but it was hard. There were bits and parts that were good examples but the character would then later say or do something that was a poor example. Maybe the fact that the Jedi claimed not to believe in absolutes is what caused them to be defeated in the first place.

I would have had Anakin looking much darker than he did in AotC right from the beginning. Except, he would put on a front when around the Jedi. Anakin would kind of have this facade when it came to the Jedi but more of himself when it came to Palpy. That would have worked out great when he faced Dooku. As soon as Obi Wan is knocked out Anakin would let go and show his darker side and not hold back. And have Dooku make comments about how weak Anakin was that he couldn’t save his mother. Taunting him like Vader did to Luke with Leia. Maybe even have Anakin aware that he’s a father right from the beginning and have Dooku promising to destroy Padme and his unborn children. Man, that would drive anyone to rage and would be many times more believable. By the midway point of the movie the Jedi would become almost sure that Anakin is about to turn to the darkside. Maybe even with some kind of evidence of what Anakin did to Dooku. Anakin would still have nightmares about Padme’s death like he did with his mother. I would then have the children born in the middle of the movie on a ship in orbit of Coruscant. It would bwhere to buy abortion pill ordering abortion pills to be shipped to house buy abortion pill online

I think you are the one taking the movie too seriously. My points were to show how unbelievable the scenes I pointed out were. Of course I'm not going to pick at the Sith. They were perfectly evil and that was to be expected. By not picking at the Sith I am not supporting the characters point of view.

Also Dooku had a look of shock on his face and not a look of I'll die with honor. If you've seen movies where characters died with honor when defeated you'd see Dooku didn't display that emotion. Even when a Sith dies in any of the Star Wars films he doesn't just sit there silently. Remember Palpy's scream as he was being betrayed by Vader? I'm sorry. I don't buy the die quietly because it's the Sith way stuff.

Another thing is Life is full of absolutes. As a matter of fact it's nothing but absolutes. So the question is not IF there are absolutes but WHAT are the absolutes. "Yoda was attempting to tell Anakin that he could not make the vision become "untrue"." A perfect example of an absolute. Also, Anakin doesn't see her die but rather sees her in pain and then unconscious. It could very well be that Anakin's attempt to save her is what killed her. Anakin was probably mis interrupting the dream because of his mother's death. He assumed it was the same thing all over again.

Of course I don't expect anyone to be perfect. But in fantasy you can have very honorable characters with less flaws than the average person to show what a person can be if they make the right choices. Lord of the Rings had great characters that displayed this. And the symbolisms in the books and films were great. Also, Frodo's succumbing to the dark temptation of the ring was many times more believable than Anakin's turn. That was one set of movies that brought tears to my eyes. Even the battle scenes had symbolism. In RotS it was like a bunch of on off switches and the good guys had seriously flaws that were passed off as not flaws because of George's philosophy. Luke of course shows that detachment is not the best way to handle things. His deep love and connection to his father is what saved Anakin and in turn saved the galaxy. The Jedi heartlessly forbid attachment. Had Anakin been allowed to keep in contact with his family he could have saved his mother the moment trouble happened.

As a husband and a father of three girls, I know that marriage and fatherhood makes people stronger. And coming from a strong family, family makes one stronger. It's only natural for people to desire a family. The Jedi's code against this is what led to there downfall. There solution with pain was to push it away instead of dealing with the cause of the pain. The EU material has obviously taken the stance that love is the strongest force. Many of the Jedi character have fallen in love or gotten married and they became stronger. Love was the theme through many of them as the saving grace. Attachment made them stronger. A health marriage and family requires more sacrifice than being single. You have to give up so much, but you gain much much more. LotR had this love conquers all them. And the characters were many times more believable.

If you had seen my post in the past on various Star Wars forums I sounded allot like you. I am a huge Star Wars fan and huge Lucas fan. I read the script before the movie came out and hoped to God that it was a fake. But looks like it wasn't. Too much of that Hindu philosophy in it. I've always defended Lucas's choices because I felt for the most part they were his to make. But this film catered too much to the fans and didn't fit the feel and rhythm of the other five. At any rate, I did say the film was great. Overall I loved it but it just had some things in it that didn't fit with what we've seen in all the other films. It could have been done allot better. But I guess we could say that with all films. I give it 4 out of 5 stars. And yes, it did feel rushed. But I think we can blame that on George's decision to start the preque

Darth Tronage & TheJediUnit

I don´t want to translate everything what you have written...
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awwwww!!! whom I cheat???!!!

I will take much time for translating everything what you have written!

Here's a quick translation, Astro.

To put it simply, Tronage (I think) believes the Jedi-love-issue detracts from the film's overall quality and I believe it elevates it to a higher level of drama. He thinks it's a weakness and I think it's a strength.

My arguments is that it's not only more realistic that the Jedi be skirting by with faults of this magnitude, but it heightens the drama by giving the other side, the Sith, their side of the story. The draw towards the darkside isn't enough to pull the likes of Anakin towards it, to me, but there should also be a form of repulsion from the Jedi order to explain his turning more completely. Something that wouldn't plague EVERY Jedi, but just a few, the selfish ones. I think this was totally perfect. Tronage apparently finds it somehow hard to believe. You can only ask him a good answer as to why.

Was that a good translation?


Thanks Boingo! I to enjoy a good discussion of this kind.

I mourn for this film having, for what I feel, fallen short of the mark. It should have been so much more

I think it is time to ask yourself less about what would have made this film hit this "mark" but instead start a personal exploration of exactly what this "mark" you pit against the film is. I think I know the answer, but what do YOU think the answer is?

Was the "mark" the product of your most fanciful imagination over the years before the PT emerged? Join the club. We ALL had extreme visions of what the Clone Wars were like. Only, that would have made a lousy film without any substance.

Was the "mark" the standard set by so many dark sci-fi films leading up to the PT? Starship Troopers? Aliens? Terminator? Folks can't seem to make up their minds that they wanted the new trilogy to be just like the old one or not. They basicly sound like they wanted it to have grown up with them. I couldn't have been more happy to have been disappointed that it had not. I was glad to see that the films where TRUELY the same and found that it was I who had done the changing. That is why I'm grateful to have gone in to see each film with my inner child at the surface, not my critical, cynical impossible to please adult self.

I believe the "mark" you speak of is pure, concentrated nostalgia. Nostalgia is and has always been the unfair penalty waged against the new films. The old films have been put on a pedestal of idolizing they really should have never been put upon, so the reverence was allowed to swell to a proportion that defied any sense of perspective. To many older fans, nostalgia enshrines the old films in a crystal coffin that no new film could have been associated with. I'm so glad that when viewing each new chapter, I attempted to pull the old films in my memory to the here and now, made them new again, made them raw and unfinished. I thank that as the reason I've been able to enjoy the films if they were indeed films as decent as the old ones... and they were... so I did.

Anyway, give your "mark" the rethink, not the films. It's already too late to recapture the viewings in the theater, but it's not too late to see the PT as the creative accomplishment that it indeed is.

I have my such "mark" under the surface in me as well too. I'm glad I didn't allow it to steal away the great fun the past decade's worth of Star Wars has had to offer, because it easily could have if I unleashed it. I'm sorry so many, like you, were not spared, but I'm selfishly delighted I was.

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Funny, speaking of which.

I don't recall /ever/ being shocked to learn that Darth Vader was Luke's father.

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