IluthraDanar Wrote:So was Clu right? Or were the ISOs supposed to be kind hearted, intelligent beings who would do nothing to hurt anyone?

I think the basic answer to that is, yes, and, yes.
Clu was right, in that the ISO's had no directives.
And Flynn was right, in that the ISO's were kind-hearted, intelligent beings who would do nothing to hurt anyone.

But I think those yes's beget further analysis...
.......I think where both Flynn and Clu were wrong, or maybe not so much as wrong but just not seeing the bigger picture and needed to have found a way to meet each other halfway... was in " the answer isn't total free will run rampant, just as it isn't the total lack of it."

My take on it is......

A. Flynn needed to have seen and understood that even the most kind-hearted, intelligent beings can unwittingly do harm to other beings or to the Grid itself, just by enacting their own free will, and can inadvertently usurp another's free will in the process without ever meaning for that to cause harm. Some directives would be needed.
And Flynn couldn't see and understand that, because he was so desperate to create a better world than the User world he'd grown up in - the world which had begun to show him loss, strife, illness, death, corruption ... and he was so desperate to fix that world that it gave him utopian tunnel vision in the Grid.


B. Clu needed to have seen and understood that such beings were and are of vital and miraculous importance, as long as agreed-upon directives can be given to guide them, directives they were in harmony with. Basically some gray area.

But Clu couldn't see that, because first of all, Flynn didn't create him that way...in his naive headspace at the time, Flynn made Clu to see and to seek perfection, period, and there is no gray area in perfection, which doesn't even exist to begin with. Second of all, in order to make sure every being on the Grid could coexist in peace and allow the system to function at its maximum potential,... the ISO's would have needed the establishment of some kind of directives and parameters, things they and Flynn and Clu could all agree upon together as being fair, and the development of all those directives/parameters would have taxed and stressed Clu well beyond his abilities without Flynn there to guide him and help him.

Okay so, that's all just my opinion.





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I wonder when Clu transitioned from protecting the system to wanting to go outside. Is it brought up anywhere, books, games? I can see him wanting to get rid of the ISOs, trouble he needs to eradicate. But when did he get it into his mind to take his vessel outside to take control of the world's system? Suddenly, it goes from practical system management to megalomaniac goals.

CLU 3.0 Wrote:Sounds like he was bitter and resentful at Flynn. Calling him selfish.. Sounds like he was jealous of everything in the user world that took Flynn away all the time.. Especially when he needed guidence.. And Flynn wasn't there.

I so agree there ... right on with the insight, Clu 3.0 !!!

No matter what, I can't vilify Clu, and would never, because in life haven't we all at some point been metaphorically thrown into his position before in some way?
(i.e., given an impossible set of tasks but not realizing they're impossible, not given enough guidance or guidelines, still trying to achieve tasks, then all hell breaks loose instead, then we have to try to correct things by whatever means we can? An unenviable position for anyone who's ever been in it) So, no, I don't agree with the approach Clu took - i.e. nurturing his resentments - but yeah, I can sure understand why he had them.


I think that ultimately the responsibility for what happened in Legacy has to fall with Flynn, ... which, sucks beans because, no Flynn didn't deserve what happened to him, not at all, but, it is what it is - one of the fundamental unwritten rules of IT is know the capacities/parameters of your system, and don't try to push it past that. Flynn didn't know those capacities at the start, in fact barely even knew himself, and that pretty much led to total disaster.

Rambling here, but,....
.....in his life at the time he created the Grid, Flynn was flying blind so to speak, was on a pink puffy cloud of I'm-having-the-time-of-my-life and let's-hope-for-the-best ... he'd just defeated the MCP and achieved a great triumph, then sorta took on the world and was expecting an unrealistic amount of factors to just magically coexist and all work out okay -- i.e. taking over Encom, marriage, new baby, still running the arcade, creating the Grid and trying to build "the perfect system"...and trying to juggle it all without messing up - naw, not even possible....
.......and, though the interpersonal dynamic in this analogy is different, this reminds me of young married couples where one spouse takes on a tremendous challenge and a lifelong dream, such as going to medical school, and the couple decides, yeah, this'll work...at first they're gonna change the world together and make dreams come true ... then maybe three years down the road, when the med-student spouse is an intern/resident, works crazy hours, is never home, never gets much sleep, is stressed to the max, can't hold up a lot of the household responsibility,... then things can get way way strained, especially if there's a baby involved and all the stresses that go with that. If the couple can't navigate/communicate through the rough spots, resentment kicks in. Jealousy, even sabotage or just animosity, and many marriages don't make it through that. The amazing ones do, and the med student goes on to be a doctor and save lives AND have a happy family life too. (yeah, I watch a lot of Grey's Anatomy, LOL)
Anyway, weird analogy but you get the point...which is, at the start of building any dream, one has to know one's parameters, and one has to be prepared for just how tough the long haul is gonna get along the way........

........in terms of the Grid,.... Flynn should have known those parameters beforehand, and he should have programmed Clu with those in mind too, rather than just expecting Clu to magically be fine and know how to handle things by himself once the long haul kicked in.


Here's what I think Flynn could have done differently and should have, (though of course they wouldn't have had a story for Legacy if he had) .....
....... at the first sign that he was in over his head with balancing the Grid/Clu/ISO's/Real World/family life/Encom, and especially at the first appearance of the ISO's, the emergence of a whole new realm which was almost too vast for him to understand - - Flynn maybe should've reached out to someone for help and guidance, someone he knew he could trust. And who would that person have been? My guess would be the guy who wrote Tron and helped him take down the MCP to begin with - the one person he knew he could turn to who would understand and help him - Alan Bradley.
The two of them, with their balanced-but-diametric approaches toward things - could have maybe saved the day and with Clu's help they could have actually created that digital frontier Kevin so dreamed of creating.
But for some reason Flynn didn't see turning to Alan as an option at the time, which is how the Betrayal and Legacy stories came into being. Hindsight is 20/20 vision, I guess, but again, without the tragedy that was Betrayal/Legacy, guess they wouldn't have had a story.

Well, if you look at it from CLU's point of view, the flaw with the ISOs is primarily not only the fact that they had free will and they were taxing the resources of the system, but the fact that they had no purpose for the Grid may have had something to do with it too. Look at the human body. The human body has the appendix, which used to serve a function but doesn't have a function anymore. Most people would see the appendix as a useless organ that is problematic to the human body (especially when it finally fails). To CLU, the programs loaded into the Grid by Flynn all had functions and purposes that served towards the Grid itself. The ISOs came out of nowhere, and served no function that was helpful to the Grid. And due to the amount of them, as we see in the comic, they began to become problematic to the system. However, instead of informing Flynn of the problem so that Flynn could have resolved it from the outside (which could have been resolved as easy as replacing the hard drive or even installing more computer memory), CLU decided to take matters into his own hands. In short, to CLU, the ISOs were resource hogs.where to buy abortion pill ordering abortion pills to be shipped to house buy abortion pill online

I guess I'm not familiar enough with the back story, as per overpopulation of the Grid. My thought was the Clu sees them as flaws because they have free will. Now what would a program with free will do? We saw they built communities but some tended toward a form of xenophobia where Basics were concerned. So how would a program with free will become a contributing member of the Grid. Unless they evaluated what was needed, they couldn't safely do anything.

IluthraDanar Wrote:I guess I'm not familiar enough with the back story, as per overpopulation of the Grid. My thought was the Clu sees them as flaws because they have free will. Now what would a program with free will do? We saw they built communities but some tended toward a form of xenophobia where Basics were concerned. So how would a program with free will become a contributing member of the Grid. Unless they evaluated what was needed, they couldn't safely do anything.

Yes, they seemed to tend toward isolationism in Betrayal as well, though it's not stated if that's of their own doing, or because they're ostracized among the other programs and so withdrew.

In Betrayal, it seems like vast amounts of Isos are starting to overload the system, which leads to instability and a lot of attacks by Grid Bugs and stuff. It looks like Tron's kept pretty hopping.

CB2001 Wrote:"I'll never drop a laptop again for the rest of my life." - Jet Bradley, "TRON 2.0." (after his experiences inside the computer). But honestly, when it comes to deleting programs, we don't know if its painful or not. We know that programs can be reinstalled without any problems and without memories of the previous install (Mercury in the "TRON 2.0" game is proof of that, as she was formatted and then re-installed). For all we know, deleting a program can be something that is completely painless to programs (before you bring up what the MCP did to CLU 1.0 in "TRON", keep in mind that CLU was decoded while he was still active and his resources absorbed, not deleted).

Right, but even if dying were completely painless, you probably wouldn't want to do it, right?

CB2001 Wrote:Well, if it was me on the outside, in modern times, I say it'd be best to transfer all files to a portable hard-drive, then install a new harddrive, followed by upgrading the memory for the computer and then copy the files back over onto the new harddrive. As long as you're not building more to the main city, I don't see how the amount can continue to greater (unless ISOs can somehow reproduce on their own, but there's no evidence of such). The problem is this: Do we really know what the Grid is? I mean, is it a representation of the hardware inside the system? Is it an O/S? Is it a program itself? If we knew the answer to that, then it could be useful in figuring out if the ISOs existence and the "right conditions" were a hiccup in the programming or the hardware, and if changing the hardware or reinstalling the software could resolve the issue of the ISOs constantly coming into being without deleting or destroying the ISOs already in existence.

Well, from the looks of things, Isos just keep coming out of the Sea. They don't address whether there's any way to curb it, except Clu's poison idea (which, as I said, is ambiguous in Betrayal because they don't say if it hurts the existing Isos, or just keeps more from forming. I got the impression it was the latter from what Clu said, but from the reactions of Tron and Flynn and the current Isos, I'm not sure).

I don't think we've figured out exactly what the Grid is, no. My guess would be that it's an OS. (My idea of the end of T:L is that in fact everything IS destroyed, and the Grid is reduced to Outlands/Sea-- just very basic data, like if you wiped your OS; it's just a blank environment waiting for something to be put on it.)

Not really . . .

The ISO's may have had no "function", but that didn't mean that they didn't care about how they were affecting one another. If anything the basics and the ISOs were all doing the same thing: Being a part of Flynn's System.

They're called "religious" in many of the games, so if anything they definitely respect the Users, so they have no real reason to be hostile to Flynn. They also seem pretty reasonable and they were developing some kind of arts or sciences, which explains why their city looks so different.

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In my own view, I tend to imagine the ISOs as being tied to the basic phenomenon of the Electronic World's reality. And they also caused a problem for Clu because of a confluence of factors.

1. I see the Electronic World as being a kind of subspace where electromagnetic systems organize a sort of quantum chaos into a tangible reality, with coherent laws of physics - but laws dictated by the structure and information in those EM patterns. The human mind is also an electromagnetic device. Its information is also "impressed" upon the EW. This accounts for how individual programs written with personal intent by a single user, have a literal part of the user woven into them. Both appearance and personality.

2. Because of the nature of the EW, computer systems and other highly organized, mechanical devices, create very solid order out of chaos. But it IS chaos - barely contained, if you will. The Grid server is essentially holding together a node of coherency within an infinite sea of chaotic potential energy and quantum mist. This means that the Grid has finite resources, and those resources must be organized properly to prevent breakdown of the very systems that maintain order and coherency. In Betrayal, we hear about new energy systems being constructed in the Grid to deal with its expanding population and new structures being built as the city expands.

3. I suspect that the ISOs are, effectively, original life forms based around the blueprint of a user - that's why they appear human, rather than being some form of abstract EW life like a Bit Sprite. But here's the key - they're not based upon any ONE user. Some astounding property of the EW, the Grid, and the process of imposing order into the subspace domain created a self organizing system. The thing about the ISOs is that they're built on the basic code foundation Flynn made for humanoid avatars on the Grid. The rest is filled in by the EW itself having been imprinted by the ambient existence of human users. My theory is that the ISOs are essentially "perfect" human beings. They are a snapshot of a living human form, but ONLY the parts essential to its operation. What they do not have, is cruft. Left over junk DNA in the genes. Genetic flaws. Inherited diseases. Weaknesses. This is what makes them unspeakably valuable to humanity - they are a blueprint for comparing the human genome against and editing out everything harmful by being able to tell what you need to keep and what's junk. This is how I suspect they're supposed to change the world, as well as reveal how life can be created from scratch.

4. Back in the Grid, this was the very problem the ISOs presented - they were the EW itself demonstrating that it couldn't be contained by the parameters of perfection. It created an element of chaos that, sadly, Clu was not equipped to handle. It's about more than seeing the ISOs as mistakes or errors. Because of how Flynn had made him, Clu was incapable of relating to the ISOs. For Clu, everything was, by its nature, supposed to have a predestined function. The ISOs were not broken, so much as too alien. At the time, Flynn didn't realize that Clu's problem was his inability to relate to anything that wasn't perfect and purposefully structured. He thought it was just that Clu hadn't gotten it yet... not that Clu was *incapable* of getting it!

In this sense Clu becomes a tragic figure - a fully sentient person, a man created to perform a role who went mad by discovering that reality doesn't conform to naive human ideas of perfection and order. In a sense, Flynn literally took his own demons out of himself and externalized them in Clu 2.0 - his need for explanations, justifications, perfection, ambition, and control. It's why Flynn became so philosophical after fighting Clu for years. He got the opportunity few people ever do - to see themselves from an external perspective and truly understand one's own flaws.

Of course, this all raises a question: we know from extended media that Clu in some way "poisoned" the Sea of Simulation with a virus of some sort that evidently prevented it from creating new ISOs on its own. This is why more ISOs didn't appear to replace those killed in the Purge. But there's no reason why Sam or another user shouldn't be able to examine the Grid's code base and figure out what Clu corrupted the sea with. If that was fixed, the Grid might be able to produce more ISOs again.

Darth Tronage Wrote:Our bodies are the most complicated, engineered wonders that exists in known science. We've only scratched the surface of understanding it's complexity and keep discovering more and more as time goes on. Definitely not random elements, but clear design.

Ah yeah.. . nothing like a little "intelligent design" to provide all the answers. Good thing nothing ever changes or goes extinct.
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IluthraDanar Wrote: In the flashback: Who said you've been corrupted, Clu or Flynn? If Flynn, I can see that. If Clu, what did he mean?

It was Clu who said that, I watched it with the subtitles to find out.
I think Clu said that because he was made by Flynn to make the perfect system but Flynn was now "corrupted" since he was with the ISOs, and they were not the perfection Clu was meant to make.