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J
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Posts: 247
Is K. Flynn actually a villain?

on Thursday, January, 30, 2014 3:08 AM
Another pass on Legacy and another run through the novelization of Tron proper, and something's bothering me. There's a lot about Kevin Flynn's behavior that adds up more to a case of anti-hero or (come Betrayal and Legacy) something dangerously close to villain. Of course, part of that in Legacy are the writers; Horowitz and Kitiss run entirely on grayscale morality and characters who aren't as clear-cut on the alignment scale as they appear on first pass (just look at OUaT and LOST). That being said, here are the points bothering me about that character.

1) He's established as a guy who has a natural gift for business, programming, and persuading others to do what he wants (Alan and Lora should have been immune to his bullshit, but look how fast he can rope them into a half-dozen felonies), but is otherwise a full-blown Man Child. His primary motivation on the first film is to get revenge on Dillinger for stealing his ideas and a ton of money. Defeating Master Control is the only way he would be able to get back to analog so he could enjoy the credit and cash. Anyone else's concerns could be a second thought at best.

2) Even right before he makes his attempt at Heroic Sacrifice, he kisses Yori, a doppelganger for his ex-girlfriend (and who he knows is happily attached to his new Program best friend). It's very obvious he's using her as a substitute for the gal who got away (who is, from a certain POV, her mother), which kinda adds to the squick.

3) After he does get back to analog, he proceeds to steal his friends' work (Lora's laser, Alan's Program) and conduct highly irregular and dangerous experiments in his arcade's basement, all the while lying to his friends and even his wife about what he's really up to! Seriously, these people are loyal and devoted to him and his cause. Alan keeps the damn pager for 21 years. Roy loses everything just as he's approaching retirement. Repeated digitizations could have done God-knows-what to his DNA, but he tells Jordan NOTHING. And after all this, he thinks so little of his friends that he doesn't even trust them with the truth? With a "in case I die or vanish, here's some instructions?"

4) And what is he doing in cyberspace? Millions of sentient, artificial life forms with their own society, goals, thoughts, and feelings, and he explicitly refers to their world as a "game," and "[his] gift to the world," with little if any consideration for them.

5) When the Isos come along, he's so delighted by them that the Programs seem secondary concerns at best. When things inevitably go south on him, he saves Quorra (last Iso), but throws millions of Program lives (including Tron's) under the proverbial bus in the process.

6) Regarding the Isos. Yes, it was a horrible, evil, Sith-Level monstrosity that Clu committed by inciting hatred against them. The creation of Abraxas and cold murder of Radia just scratched the surface. The Iso Wars, bombing of their cities, mass genocide are even worse. However, the Grid was falling apart from gridbugs, system failures, and capacity issues before the coup (see the Betrayal comic). It went from being on the verge of irrecoverable crash to stable enough to run uninterrupted for nearly 21 years. The other disturbing element was that Flynn was delighted about the Isos, enough and go on and on about how great Isos were, how much of a "miracle" they were, his "gift to the world." The Programs get slapped with a denigrating label of Basics, and Flynn doesn't seem to be interested in them (to the point of possibly throwing them all under the bus, Tron included, just to he could save Quorra and his own ass). But aren't the Programs also miracles? Aren't they also life from nothing with unknown origin? Aren't they also sentient lifeforms with their own social order, dreams, sense of humor? Weren't they also worth respect? Wouldn't even the simplest accounting script like Ram rewrite everything - science, medicine, religion - just as much as an Iso could?

7) Quorra says he fought against Clu, but there is no evidence of it in TRON: Uprising and his idea of "fighting" in TRON: Evolution was to code up Anon to do battle for him and die to rescue Quorra.

Even worse is that the two other main characters of Legacy are his devoted disciple (who was saved by him while millions of others were left to die or worse) and the son who has desperately wanted to find him, characters who likely have a very large blind spot when it comes to his degree of culpability. I figure that the writers were probably intending a more flattering picture than this, but add up these points, and it doesn't look good for him.

Rebuttal? Additions to the list of disturbing behavior? Something I missed? buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

It's an entire universe in there, one we created, but it's beyond us now. Really. It's outgrown us. You know, every time you shut off your computer...do you know what you're doing? Have you ever reformatted a hard drive? Deleted old software? Destroyed an entire universe?"

-- Jet Bradley, Tron: Ghost in the Machine on why being a User isn't necessarily a good thing.
 
Traahn
User

Posts: 3,190
RE: Is K. Flynn actually a villain?

on Friday, January, 31, 2014 12:03 AM
You leave Jeff Bridges alone. He's no villain!



1) He may be a hacker and a charismatic personality that can gain followers, but he's no villain. He recruits Alan and Lora for a fairly noble cause. His primary motivation is not revenge on Dillinger, it's to get the evidence to prove he, himself, wrote the games. A by-product of getting the evidence could be construed as "getting revenge," I suppose, but I've never felt "revenge" was his primary motivation; and I don't feel the film is trying to suggest that it is. Since Alan's Group 7 access was suspended and the Tron program is being held by the Master Control Program*, Alan probably realizes something is amiss or fishy with Dillinger and has little problem with helping Flynn. Besides, if Flynn just called the cops at the start of the movie, the movie would be over in less than 5 minutes ... probably with a police department unable to get the proof because of a lack of technical expertise (it's the early 1980s, after all) and personal motivation to do anything. PS: I disagree with the notion that him having a primary goal of getting credit and cash for his creations equates to villainous behavior in the capitalistic society he exists in; it's getting credit and reward where credit and reward are due. If Alan and Lora want to join on that noble journey, that's their prerogative. He's not holding a gun to them or coercing them, which a true villain might do.

*Alan's terminal:
ADDRESS FILE EMPTY
TRON PROGRAM UNAVAILABLE

REQUEST: MASTER CONTROL PROGRAM
RELEASE TRON JA 307020
I HAVE PRIORITY ACCESS 7


2) That was a weird thing to have him do, considering it's Tron/Alan's girflriend. But I try not to overanalyze it. I've always seen that as maybe more a writing accident than Flynn being a jerk. (I've also always wondered if Disney/Lisberger maybe nixed the love scene because of the love triangle they created; possibly accidentally created. Lora being Alan's girlfriend and Flynn's ex. Yori being Tron's boyfriend, yet Flynn kisses her. So, adding a Tron + Yori love scene in the mix might've just been construed as 'too much,' especially given the Flynn kiss. (The Flynn kiss is pretty powerful timing-wise, so it's not like you could easily decide to get rid of that in favor of the love scene. For me, it's a bit of a toss up on which to keep, if both situations can't be in.) But, that's just one theory... -- I think they say something different on the DVD commentary and elsewhere. I seem to recall one reason being that it would've ruined the pace of the movie at that moment.) Also, I've never interpreted the programs as 'children' with the Users being their 'parents'?? I guess with the programs seeing their Users as a deity, it's possible to think that way, but I feel programs are more supposed to be parallel lives; alter egos. And from a program's perspective, Users are more mythological Gods. I don't perceive Flynn as kissing Lora's daughter.

3) He has his creative side pursuing interesting things again. Sometimes inventors need to be secretive. I've always felt it is a little short-sighted to be digitizing back and forth with no back-up plan, will, or without someone knowing, but I still don't see 'villain' in that. It makes for a good movie mystery when nobody knows anything Plus, he had done it a bunch of times, so it's not unreasonable to think he felt pretty safe. Do people always tell others when they're about to go sky diving, bungee jumping, on a hike, etc.? Not the same thing, I know... but could be seen as somewhat similar. How would he know Clu would turn on him? As for "Lora's laser"... Did he actually steal the laser, and was it stated that Lora owned it? (I may have missed that.) As far as I know, he owned ENCOM... so he'd have the right to use the equipment within.

4) He loves his little programs.

5) I'd be delighted, too, if every other program that ever lived was manually created... given a specific task/purpose in life... and then all the sudden an ISO pops up out of the primordial ooze. In a way, he could re-create the 'ordinary' programs any time he wanted, but he wouldn't be able to re-create an ISO at will and maybe not ever. ISOs are special, in that respect... a little more coveted, I'd think. Plus, Quorra has healing capabilities... and/or something remarkable she can bring to the real world to benefit humans, apparently. Depending on what she's capable of doing, do you save the Golden Child, or the masses. Flynn would have arguments either way... neither of which is entirely right, or arguable, entirely wrong.

6) Programs are miracles in their own way. But Quorra is super-miracle See #5 above. Other than that, I got nuthin'. But is Flynn a villain for wanting to protect his human life instead of a 'programmed life', or for wanting to save the Golden Child over many 'programmed lives'?

7) TRON: Uprising and Tron: Evolution don't count, hehe.

In conclusion, the writers made Flynn a fun-loving, charismatic, kind, warm-hearted dude. He even willingly sacrificed his own life to: save his son and Quorra's life; put an end to Clu's absolute, ruthless, and imperialistic rule; prevent Clu from gaining even more unchecked power and capabilities; and prevent Clu and his assimilated armies from reaching the real world where he would do 'who knows what.' Flynn may very well have saved the world. Literally. And here you are trying to make him a villain?...

Anti-Flynn smear campaign successfully blocked

I fight for the Users!!

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I'm getting out of here right now, and you guys are invited. -----^
 
ShadowSpark
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Posts: 2,893
RE: Is K. Flynn actually a villain?

on Friday, January, 31, 2014 2:00 AM
To be honest, I'm leaning more towards J's argument here. While Flynn may not be a villain, he's certainly no hero either. Not so sure about the stuff for the first movie, but for the second one, I think J's pretty spot-on. Flynn screwed up big time, and the only mistake he actually admitted to was making Clu flawed.buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


{A very big thanks to FlynnOne for the pic! And to Wulfeous for sharpening the details!*huggles both*}
{Because people always seem to guess wrong, I'm saying it here: I'm female!!! And my name is Spark!!!}

Letters sent to Disney regarding Tron Uprising: 4

Tron Lives!

If you're against bullying in all its forms, including cyber-bullying, copy and paste this into your profile or signature!
 
KingJ.exe
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Posts: 371
RE: Is K. Flynn actually a villain?

on Friday, January, 31, 2014 12:11 PM
I don't think Flynn was the villain. However, after the original film, he definetly wasn't the hero.

First point: In the original film, Flynn was the abused underdog who tried to legally work his way up the corporate ladder (assuming it was perfectly fine for him to use his work terminal in the off hours to write games) and had all of his work stolen. His primary motivation was to reclaim his stolen work, and I think there's this point when he decides he's going to help these programs and help save their world. They're standing, waiting to be rezzed into the Lightcycle Grid, and Tron says that his user wants him to take down the MCP. Flynn pauses, doesn't say anything for a second, and then "My user wants me to do that too."

I think that's the way the scene went, either way it has the same idea.

So, we move into Betrayal, Evolution, and Legacy. And really, what affects our view of Flynn is how much we DON'T know.

We don't know how Flynn got a laser in his basement. It also might not have been the exact same laser, he had the funds and the genius to build another one.
We don't know how he got Tron. Maybe Alan was about to delete him or something. Maybe Alan knew something about what Flynn was doing ("Wouldn't that be something?") .

Flynn was secretive because he was preparing a surprise for the world. For everyone in the world. That, and he didn't want to end up in the nuthouse. Because really, if you tell anyone (besides your 8 year old kiddo as a bedtime story) that there's a world inside the computer, they're going to smile, nod, and call the local asylum to come by with the straightjacket.

Now, ISO Program relations.
Flynn has a childlike spirit. Now, that's not always a bad thing. Sometimes its very good, other times its very bad. This is one of those times it ended up being very bad.

Flynn discovers the ISOs. And they're amazing. Fantastic, stupendous, a miracle. They're going to solve everything. World peace, here we come!

But, like a child with a new toy, he neglected the programs he started with. Not maliciously, he still had affections for these programs, but they weren't as new and shiny as the ISOs. I don't believe the term "Basic" was intended to be malicious either. Flynn considered both the Basics and Isos programs. Since the ISOs were undeniably more complex, he called the simpler, more basic programs "Basics." They might have even been written in BASIC. He was a programmer. He didn't think anything of it.

Add to that the fact that he was trying to run a multi-million dollar company, raise a son nearly solo (he did have Jordan's parents) and change the world all at the same time, you can almost understand how he could overlook the situation on the Grid.

Another "Don't Know" situation. We don't know how much Flynn was fighting. In Uprising, we're following Tron in Argon City. The most we see of Quorra is her trying to get out of dodge in Gallium with another ISO, Ada. Maybe that was part of how Flynn was fighting. He was saving every ISO he could. Uprising also references the ISO Wars.

In Legacy and Evolution, it looked like a flat out purge, but what if the Purge just sparked the initial war? There were a few ISOs that escaped (Quorra, Ada), and maybe they and Flynn sparked a war. Which obviously didn't go well.

Put yourself in Flynn's shoes. You save and convince enough Programs and ISO's to get a fair sized army, and you think you can fight CLU, but you're crushed. All of your allies are either destroyed or flee, except for Quorra and a few survivors bold enough to still proclaim their allegiance on their sleeve like Cutler. But you're utterly defeated. Smashed. You have one friend that you want to protect more than anything.

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J
User

Posts: 247
RE: Is K. Flynn actually a villain?

on Friday, January, 31, 2014 3:40 PM
King's right; there's a huge amount we don't know, and that makes it all the more frustrating. You want to believe the official story. Clu being a complete monster helps. The viewpoint characters being sympathetic helps. It's only after the second or third (or more) watching after running through Betrayal, Evolution, and Uprising that I started going "something's not right. Too much is not adding up. Is that really the whole truth?"


Traahn Wrote:
(I've also always wondered if Disney/Lisberger maybe nixed the love scene because of the love triangle they created; possibly accidentally created. Lora being Alan's girlfriend and Flynn's ex. Yori being Tron's boyfriend, yet Flynn kisses her. So, adding a Tron + Yori love scene in the mix might've just been construed as 'too much,' especially given the Flynn kiss. (The Flynn kiss is pretty powerful timing-wise, so it's not like you could easily decide to get rid of that in favor of the love scene. For me, it's a bit of a toss up on which to keep, if both situations can't be in.)


Disney studios would not dream of signing off on an OT3 (not even in the modern era - see Aurora/Phillip/Mulan in OUaT or Will/Elizabeth/Jack in PotC), but it's the best dodge I can make here. Programs likely don't have the same concepts of family or sexuality as humans, so for all we know, there were some permissions granted on that Solar Sailer.

Traahn Wrote:Also, I've never interpreted the programs as 'children' with the Users being their 'parents'?? I guess with the programs seeing their Users as a deity, it's possible to think that way, but I feel programs are more supposed to be parallel lives; alter egos. And from a program's perspective, Users are more mythological Gods.

Here's where the doppelganger issue runs smack into some real world religions (the concept of God as an over-Father), and some very deeply embedded tropes about creating life. The idea of parenthood says "you made this new life, you're responsible for it!" In practice, it's talking about biology. In theory? Well, you create life - even synthetic life - you're a parent. Even Frankenstein's monster saw Victor as an abusive, neglectful jerk of a dad. Jack Pumpkinhead insisted on calling Ozma "father." I'm sure the implementation in the Tron-verse would get very complicated and send Team Bradley scrambling for the aspirin, but "child" is a decent approximation. (There are some first-rate fanfics that run with this, BTW.) Canon even hints at it when Flynn apologizes, then embraces/mutually kills one "son" (Clu) to save the other (Sam).

Traahn Wrote: Plus, he had done it a bunch of times, so it's not unreasonable to think he felt pretty safe. Do people always tell others when they're about to go sky diving, bungee jumping, on a hike, etc.? Not the same thing, I know... but could be seen as somewhat similar.

BASIC safety and courtesy when it comes to hiking, mountain climbing, or any dangerous sport is to either not be stupid enough to solo it, or be VERY good about leaving an itinerary. Never venture out unannounced, let others know your approximate route and time you plan to be back so that if something goes wrong, Search and Rescue can find you. Every year, a dozen people or more get lost on Mount Rainier, ranging from teenagers on a day hike to veteran climbers. Yes, you can go and do dangerous things alone, but you ALWAYS leave your lifelines open in case shit hits fan.

Flynn's careless and caviler treatment of his loved ones is a large sticking point, especially seeing what they were willing to do for him. He didn't love or trust them enough to tell them the truth? To say "in case I vanish or die - and ONLY THEN - open this envelope" (We know Roy and Alan would follow instructions) He didn't love or trust Jordan enough to explain things? He thought so little of Sam and his Programs that he didn't plan for a sudden death like Jordan's?

Traahn Wrote:
I'd be delighted, too, if every other program that ever lived was manually created... given a specific task/purpose in life... and then all the sudden an ISO pops up out of the primordial ooze. In a way, he could re-create the 'ordinary' programs any time he wanted,


Again, here's where we have a big gap of information that might help or muddy things further. When Ram was killed off, it definitely wasn't treated like "well, crap, the insurance software needs a reinstall" Clu 1.0 was a decent enough fellow that got killed off, and we all saw that Clu 2.0 was a very different animal than his predecessor. As far as we can see in-universe, each Program is a unique lifeform, an individual person. True, they have hard-wired directives they cannot (and probably don't want to) break, but they seem to have quite the flexibility to decide how they carry out their functions and expand into new functions (Ram went from insurance salesman to gladiator. Paige went from medic to soldier. Beck...long way from mechanic to revolutionary). Even restoration from backup could be tricky - the only case of it we saw was in Tron 2.0 (I know, non-canon) where Mercury was re-installed and acted disturbingly mechanical until her "settings" and memory was restored.

Traahn Wrote:Depending on what she's capable of doing, do you save the Golden Child, or the masses. Flynn would have arguments either way... neither of which is entirely right, or arguable, entirely wrong.

In some regards, that might make things even worse. Okay, you save Joan of Arc, but it means allowing the English to kill every French citizen in a hundred miles. Save one "special" person but let millions suffer, die, and endure fates much worse than death because they aren't "special enough." Would certainly suck to know your God abandoned you to something very horrible because you weren't special enough, and no matter what you said or did, he was still saving his precious one over you and everyone else. Under the circumstances, I'd probably sign on with Clu willingly upon hearing that! I wonder if that wasn't one of Clu's better arguments to turn the population against Flynn, actually.


Traahn Wrote:TRON: Uprising and Tron: Evolution don't count, hehe.

The only things that technically "don't count" are 2.0 and Ghost in the Machine, due to Disney Oswalding them from canon. Even then, they work for secondary sources.

The argument is something I've seen alluded to. Some fanfic writers like grey_sw, ExpositionFairy, and Cyberbutterfly have done a bit of deconstruction on the circumstances in Legacy and things maybe not being as cut and dry as it appeared. I consolidated a lot of the arguments I saw in their stories and the stuff that bothered me and decided to put it out there to see if anyone else noticed the same things. buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

It's an entire universe in there, one we created, but it's beyond us now. Really. It's outgrown us. You know, every time you shut off your computer...do you know what you're doing? Have you ever reformatted a hard drive? Deleted old software? Destroyed an entire universe?"

-- Jet Bradley, Tron: Ghost in the Machine on why being a User isn't necessarily a good thing.
 
J
User

Posts: 247
RE: Is K. Flynn actually a villain?

on Friday, January, 31, 2014 4:24 PM
KingJ.exe Wrote:I don't think Flynn was the villain. However, after the original film, he definitely wasn't the hero.

I kinda end up here. He wasn't a bad man with bad intentions. That would be his digital doppelganger who chose the nastiest way to implement his directive out of rage and jealousy. His crimes are more out of selfishness, stupidity, and carelessness than malice, but that really doesn't excuse things. His boneheaded actions and lack of forethought ruined the lives of every character in the films. Sam will be spending the rest of his life cleaning up after mistakes he never made, always in his dad's shadow without even the option of slumming it in the game department to break free. Quorra has no analog world skills, connections, identity. She's dependent on Sam, who is still not the most reliable or social of guys. Alan and Roy's work was all for nothing. They get the company back (and are going to be cleaning up after Kevin - again), but no answers. All their work in trying to find their friend was for nothing.

And that's just the analog world. No matter how this plays out, Tronzler is a badly injured, mentally-glitched mess. No sign of Yori. Beck and friends likely dead or worse. Millions of Program lives lost. Entire cities burned, the Grid with no leadership whatsoever (if Tessler survived, he's most likely to step up to the power vacuum)


KingJ.exe Wrote:
So, we move into Betrayal, Evolution, and Legacy. And really, what affects our view of Flynn is how much we DON'T know.

Yeah, there's the kicker. Two movies, a graphic novel, a game, and the animated series - and there's so much that's a big, fat question mark


KingJ.exe Wrote:We don't know how Flynn got a laser in his basement. It also might not have been the exact same laser, he had the funds and the genius to build another one.
We don't know how he got Tron. Maybe Alan was about to delete him or something. Maybe Alan knew something about what Flynn was doing ("Wouldn't that be something?") .

It may not be the exact same laser, but the laser itself was an invention of Gibbs and Lora explicitly calls it her life's work. Given that, Flynn may technically own the laser, but wouldn't telling her be the moral thing to do? She's a scientist; her whole life is the pursuit of knowledge. Hell, it's why she spent most of her marriage on the opposite coast! She helps invent something that could rewrite everything known about the world and her ex is taking it for a joyride.



KingJ.exe Wrote:Flynn was secretive because he was preparing a surprise for the world. For everyone in the world. That, and he didn't want to end up in the nuthouse. Because really, if you tell anyone (besides your 8 year old kiddo as a bedtime story) that there's a world inside the computer, they're going to smile, nod, and call the local asylum to come by with the straightjacket.


Sorry. I don't buy this. He has all of these people around him willing to give up their careers, their reputations, their lives for him. Yes, I figured Alan's reaction was "stop smoking that stuff" , but Lora and Roy? Especially since Lora knows the mechanics of the laser and Roy is just that fanatically loyal? And lying to Jordan when it could have had consequences for Sam was worse than irresponsible. Yes, the idea of a cyberspace civilization would be hard to explain, but he had a responsibility to his friends, family, and the Programs to try.


KingJ.exe Wrote:Now, ISO Program relations....But, like a child with a new toy, he neglected the programs he started with. Not maliciously, he still had affections for these programs, but they weren't as new and shiny as the ISOs.

And see above for him treating people like toys. Clu warned him repeatedly that things were falling apart. TRON was warning him that things were going downhill fast. And saving one Iso while millions of lives are left to de-rez or much worse is questionable, especially since all he talked about was how she was his "gift to the world."

KingJ.exe Wrote:Add to that the fact that he was trying to run a multi-million dollar company, raise a son nearly solo (he did have Jordan's parents) and change the world all at the same time, you can almost understand how he could overlook the situation on the Grid.

And this ties into why he should have trusted the people willing to give up everything for him with the truth and let them help. Any one of them, all of them, if they could be made to understand, would have gladly helped carry the burden. And that's not even getting into the idea that Alan really needed to know about his de facto son, Lora needed to know about what her laser really uncovered, and Roy would have been the finest moral compass a man could ask for.

But no. It looks like he wanted all the fame and credit, so he lies to and uses his friends.



KingJ.exe Wrote:Another "Don't Know" situation. We don't know how much Flynn was fighting. In Uprising, we're following Tron in Argon City. The most we see of Quorra is her trying to get out of dodge in Gallium with another ISO, Ada. Maybe that was part of how Flynn was fighting. He was saving every ISO he could. Uprising also references the ISO Wars.

Again, save the Isos while the Programs are thrown under the bus? Yeah, that's not helping his case.



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It's an entire universe in there, one we created, but it's beyond us now. Really. It's outgrown us. You know, every time you shut off your computer...do you know what you're doing? Have you ever reformatted a hard drive? Deleted old software? Destroyed an entire universe?"

-- Jet Bradley, Tron: Ghost in the Machine on why being a User isn't necessarily a good thing.
 
Kat
User

Posts: 2,342
RE: Is K. Flynn actually a villain?

on Saturday, February, 01, 2014 12:44 AM
Gosh, yes. Some of this, I've been saying for years.

It's late, so I can't promise how coherent this reply will be, but it's T:B especially that bothers me. It casts Clu into a much more gray light and brings up a lot of interesting issues that get our brains thinking, but it also has bad implications for both Flynn and Tron. Honestly, if I want to like Flynn, I cut T:B right out of my headcanon.

Parts you forget: the way Flynn blatantly takes advantage of everyone in that particular piece. It looks like Alan's left scrambling at the company trying to make him look good and cover up for all the times he screws up, goes AWOL, etc. ... and then he waltzes out of the company altogether and leaves Alan at the helm (and remember, Alan's a programmer, not a businessman. He no doubt wants to be in front of a computer screen, not a boardroom).

Jordan's obviously left with much of the childrearing (he can't even bother to show up for the prenatal medical appointments or make it to the birth on time, and he barely does any of the baby prep work considering it seems to be a big deal to have him even go to the store to pick up something for the baby's room), considering the extent to which he falls apart on that front after she dies-- and then plops most of the responsibility on the shoulders of her parents (which they even call him out on... and it doesn't seem he listens).

Tron, Clu, and Shaddox are barely hacking it in the Grid, and Flynn doesn't even bother to take it seriously when they point out-- multiple times-- that everything's pretty fucked-up. He's so excited about the Isos, but it sounds like he never actually interacts with them. Is there anyone he doesn't use, anyone besides himself he has the least bit of consideration for?


He's immature in the first film, and while I may take some exception with character continuity into the second, that part doesn't change-- for all he's supposed to have gained all this wisdom in a thousand years of having his non-action arse plopped on a zafu, he sure as hell hasn't actually done so (I've argued this in other places).


I've felt, through both films, that he's had little sense that programs are equal to users. Now, we could argue this either way, I admit, but I also have to admit that while I can sit on this side of the screen and say one thing about program-vs-user worth, once I'd been looking programs in the eyes, I'm not sure I could sing that particular song anymore.


Let's not talk about how he leaves Tron behind-- twice-- without a second glance or a tear in his eye. Again, we could argue about this: it's what Tron wants, and it may be more betrayal on Flynn's part to not listen and stick around to endanger BOTH of their lives, and it'd be pretty shitty if Tron dies fighting for Flynn and the thing he's fighting for doesn't come to pass anyway because Flynn doesn't get the hell out of Dodge like Tron told him to. Still...

2. Um, yeah. Yori. I can't think of many ways to make that NOT a shitty thing to do. But it's been debated here before and the consensus seemed to be that the hysterical women were making a mountain out of a molehill and apparently kissing your buddy's significant other/kissing someone else while you're in a relationship is No Big Deal, so that's all I'll say on the subject.

4. I could go on and on. Like, think of human history and conquering civilizations and exploitation and etc. etc. And he wants to perpetrate that on yet another society? Lack of forethought, or does he just not care?

5. I'll give him this... the programs weren't going to have it much better under Clu. The part that gets me is that he still didn't have any altruistic feelings for them. Or for Q for that matter. The ONLY thing that gets him to fight Clu is Sam being in danger-- after all, he's had no desire to get Quorra out of there prior to that, so I don't think it's her safety he was fighting for, which has to feel pretty crappy for her. For that matter, the only thing that actually gets him off his ass is Sam's action-- otherwise he's obviously happy for Sam to get trapped there, too, as long as Flynn doesn't have to actually do anything. Okay, we can talk about apathy and depression etc. (see my Beat of Your Heart fic) and give him a wee bit of a pass, but...

6.
J Wrote:It went from being on the verge of irrecoverable crash to stable enough to run uninterrupted for nearly 21 years.
The other disturbing thought this brings up is: was Clu right??


Traahn Wrote:I've always seen that as maybe more a writing accident than Flynn being a jerk. (I've also always wondered if Disney/Lisberger maybe nixed the love scene because of the love triangle they created; possibly accidentally created. Lora being Alan's girlfriend and Flynn's ex. Yori being Tron's boyfriend, yet Flynn kisses her. So, adding a Tron + Yori love scene in the mix might've just been construed as 'too much,' especially given the Flynn kiss. .
Besides the possible controversy of love scene, I always figured they couldn't find a good place to put it. I mean, it's an action movie. It would've made no sense: Tron's like, "we gotta go take down the MCP *now*; my user's calling me, let's go! ... oh, wait, I will stop to get it on." It would've been a stretch to make it work.


Traahn Wrote: Also, I've never interpreted the programs as 'children' with the Users being their 'parents'?? I guess with the programs seeing their Users as a deity, it's possible to think that way, but I feel programs are more supposed to be parallel lives; alter egos.
I've never been able to get into it, either. I've created a lot of things in my life, from writing to music to art to yarn and a lot of other things, and I would never see any of that as remotely being any sort of "child" substitute or avatar, for many reasons. Even if I were to find out that, say, a piece of music I'd written had some kind of sentience, I still wouldn't feel that way.


KingJ.exe Wrote:They're standing, waiting to be rezzed into the Lightcycle Grid, and Tron says that his user wants him to take down the MCP. Flynn pauses, doesn't say anything for a second, and then "My user wants me to do that too."

I think that's the way the scene went, either way it has the same idea.
Other way around, actually. Flynn says something like "I'm starting to remember a lot of things. Like, my user wants me to go after the MCP." Tron's uncertain, then says, "My user wants that, too." At this point, Flynn is still definitely looking out for his own interests: get the hell out of there, and get his evidence.


J Wrote:I kinda end up here. He wasn't a bad man with bad intentions. That would be his digital doppelganger who chose the nastiest way to implement his directive out of rage and jealousy. His crimes are more out of selfishness, stupidity, and carelessness than malice, but that really doesn't excuse things. His boneheaded actions and lack of forethought ruined the lives of every character in the films.
DING. At what point does a person's selfishness/lack of consideration for other people surpass "they don't know any better/don't mean it" and become a fault? Certainly if you reach adulthood without managing to notice/care that you are as self-absorbed as he is, some of the culpability starts falling on you.


J Wrote:Yeah, there's the kicker. Two movies, a graphic novel, a game, and the animated series - and there's so much that's a big, fat question mark
Won't be the first time i"ve said this, won't be the last. There was so much in any of this material that it seems they either didn't think about, or didn't know what to do with, so they glossed over and hoped we wouldn't think about it either. If Disney was smart, they'd scoop up everyone from this forum, put us in a room, let us argue it out, and cherrypick ideas and problemsolving and explanations for their next film-- because obviously the writers all sucked at it and thought about it all a lot less than the fans have.
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What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
Traahn
User

Posts: 3,190
RE: Is K. Flynn actually a villain?

on Saturday, February, 01, 2014 2:08 AM
J Wrote: It's only after the second or third (or more) watching after running through Betrayal, Evolution, and Uprising that I started going "something's not right. Too much is not adding up. Is that really the whole truth?"
That probably helps create some of the disconnect between us. It's been forever since I read Tron: Betrayal... I didn't like Evolution and didn't really pay attention to the story because I didn't like the gameplay... and I've only seen a few episodes of Uprising.

I don't trust anything in Tron: Betrayal. It's been a long time since I've read it, but it seems like we get a glimpse of the 'new' grid early in it (like within a few pages) and it already looks like the grid made by Nike that's featured in Tron: Legacy with Nike gym clothes circuitry. Whereas Kosinski/Lisberger said the new system looks the way it does because of some Galapagos Island evolution that took like, what, 30 years to create on the server. I think there was something else it either got wrong or was just too quickly Tron: Legacy-ized for the sake of jiving with Tron: Legacy and being contemporary for today's audience, as opposed to showing the antiquated, insignificant and undesirable , and it rubbed me the wrong way.

And anything other than the movies is non-canon to me, no matter how much it seems to tie to the films. I feel that way for most everything, not just Tron. Just seems less official to me. I remember Tron 2.0 being marketed as an official sequel to the movie, just in video game format. I didn't care for that notion and never accepted it. Thankfully, years later, I can say it wasn't an official sequel. Even though I loved the game, I like to keep media like that as "one-offs" from the official movie canon. If a movie happens to eventually borrow from a game or comic, that's fine... but until then, it's unofficial, imo.

KingJ.exe Wrote: So, we move into Betrayal, Evolution, and Legacy. And really, what affects our view of Flynn is how much we DON'T know.

J Wrote: Yeah, there's the kicker. Two movies, a graphic novel, a game, and the animated series - and there's so much that's a big, fat question mark
Sounds good to me. I hate it when films or games strive to tell you each and every little tidbit of everything; fill in every gap. I prefer some theater of the mind. Some mystery and unknowns are not necessarily a bad thing. For me, it diminishes the enjoyment if there are answers to everything. Every nook and cranny explored. Every minute accounted for. Every thought known.

Kat Wrote: I've never been able to get into it, either. I've created a lot of things in my life, from writing to music to art to yarn and a lot of other things, and I would never see any of that as remotely being any sort of "child" substitute or avatar, for many reasons. Even if I were to find out that, say, a piece of music I'd written had some kind of sentience, I still wouldn't feel that way.
That'd be awesome, though. Write a paragraph and all the letters that comprise it are your little children living in the page Cute! hehe



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I'm getting out of here right now, and you guys are invited. -----^
 
ShadowSpark
User

Posts: 2,893
RE: Is K. Flynn actually a villain?

on Sunday, February, 02, 2014 4:05 AM
J Wrote:In some regards, that might make things even worse. Okay, you save Joan of Arc, but it means allowing the English to kill every French citizen in a hundred miles. Save one "special" person but let millions suffer, die, and endure fates much worse than death because they aren't "special enough." Would certainly suck to know your God abandoned you to something very horrible because you weren't special enough, and no matter what you said or did, he was still saving his precious one over you and everyone else. Under the circumstances, I'd probably sign on with Clu willingly upon hearing that! I wonder if that wasn't one of Clu's better arguments to turn the population against Flynn, actually.

If you consider Evolution canon, than yes, it is one of Clu's arguments. In the scene where Anon(you) is in the games and Clu is making this big speech, he mentions how Flynn has thrown all Basics aside in favor of the ISOs.buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


{A very big thanks to FlynnOne for the pic! And to Wulfeous for sharpening the details!*huggles both*}
{Because people always seem to guess wrong, I'm saying it here: I'm female!!! And my name is Spark!!!}

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spacedinosaurblue
User

Posts: 50
RE: Is K. Flynn actually a villain?

on Tuesday, June, 24, 2014 10:59 AM
I don't think Flynn is in any way a villain, but remember that Flynn is practically the prototype of the modern urban hacker. He's an anti-hero and a born troublemaker.

But more pertinent, the way the Tron saga has developed is to be about unintended consequences and the need to understand life in a sense of a holistic whole. It's very eastern - not western, which is more about direct power and domination to bend nature to man's will. Remember that the original Tron film's story was inspired largely by corporation exploitation of individuality and creativity. It just fit nicely into the upcoming computer revolution which would highlight "maverick" inventors and hackers.

In the bigger picture of Tron, Clu is definitely supposed to be a tragic character. Not a simple villain. There is no big good or evil struggle in Tron as it has developed, no MPC (currently). Clu's actions through the story are a direct result of what Flynn made him to be. Flynn inadvertently created a paradox Clu wasn't built to comprehend and Clu resolved the issue the only way he could. At the end of Tron Legacy, Flynn takes full responsibility for Clu's actions. He accepts that Clu is not evil - Clu's mentality is the result of Flynn's own youthful naivety. I think the viewer is not supposed to forgive Clu, but you are meant to feel pity for him.

I suspect that the emergence of the ISOs are meant to symbolize that reality is ultimately beyond human control. Flynn literally created his own universe - The Grid. He should have been God, and programs in the Grid saw him that way. But "God" couldn't keep the ISOs from manifesting.

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