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Pilgrim1099
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Posts: 606
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Friday, December, 14, 2012 9:17 AM
Theflynnabides Wrote:It would've been better if Clu's mandate was to escape into other systems and hold the User world hostage by controlling missile launch stations and the like. Then it would've been a viable threat, and not ridiculous.

(ahem) Ever seen the Terminator series? Too cliche of a route. Tron is'nt about THAT. Think about it. Without the Users, Programs can't exist.


 
Theflynnabides
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Posts: 215
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Friday, December, 14, 2012 11:28 AM
Pilgrim1099 Wrote:(ahem) Ever seen the Terminator series? Too cliche of a route. Tron is'nt about THAT. Think about it. Without the Users, Programs can't exist.

Ever see Tron 1? that's what the MCP did.

Tron not being cliche? Have you seen either film?

Clu survived 20 years without a user, he wouldn't consider that to be a likelihood, and besides, like all nuclear threats, mutually assured destruction is always an acknowledged thing.where to buy abortion pill abortion types buy abortion pill online

____________________________________
"Tron is for NERDS!"

Yea, well, that's just like, your opinion, man...

 
Pilgrim1099
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Posts: 606
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Friday, December, 14, 2012 8:25 PM
Theflynnabides Wrote:
Pilgrim1099 Wrote:(ahem) Ever seen the Terminator series? Too cliche of a route. Tron is'nt about THAT. Think about it. Without the Users, Programs can't exist.

Ever see Tron 1? that's what the MCP did.

Tron not being cliche? Have you seen either film?

Clu survived 20 years without a user, he wouldn't consider that to be a likelihood, and besides, like all nuclear threats, mutually assured destruction is always an acknowledged thing.

I saw both movies in 1982 and 2011. MCP wanted to control the world and enslave it, not kill the human race. Without any humans to do his bidding, he can't do anything in the real world but push data here and there.

As for CLU, Flynn was his User and still was for 20 years. Without Flynn, there would be no CLU . I think if Clu went into the real world, he would be impersonating Flynn but with a physical flaw. He looks too "1984". His body would probably convert to human DNA and not be able to use his disc or defy the Laws of Nature in combat. In the Grid, one can do that but not in the real world. That argument will have to wait until Tron 3 becomes a reality.

Bruce will have to be in it, regardless. And if they go with Tron ressurrected, they will have to use the motion capture tech to replicate his face for de-aging again. And use Anis Cheurfa for the physical stunts (Rinzler). In fact, this might be one of the reasons why Disney was hesitant about using this tech again due to the expense. It's the script itself that will give them an idea of how expensive the story will be on budget, or beyond.

One thing is for sure, the writer(s) will have to be careful about not conflicting with Tron: Uprising's detail and history in relation to the story for continuity's sake.


 
Tzigone
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Posts: 48
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Friday, December, 14, 2012 8:52 PM
One thing is for sure, the writer(s) will have to be careful about not conflicting with Tron: Uprising's detail and history in relation to the story for continuity's sake.
I don't care if they do. I mean, so far as I'm concerned, Uprising already conflicts with Legacy (because of Tron being there), so I don't want the movie folks trying to work with that continuity.


 
DarthMeow504
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Posts: 128
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Monday, December, 17, 2012 9:56 AM
All I can say is give me a working Shiva laser and I'll take over the world. Absolutely no doubt in my mind. That tech is an absolute game changer.


 
KingJ.exe
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Posts: 372
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Monday, December, 17, 2012 11:09 AM
Tzigone Wrote:
One thing is for sure, the writer(s) will have to be careful about not conflicting with Tron: Uprising's detail and history in relation to the story for continuity's sake.
I don't care if they do. I mean, so far as I'm concerned, Uprising already conflicts with Legacy (because of Tron being there), so I don't want the movie folks trying to work with that continuity.
Uprising doesn't conflict with Legacy. Scars Pt. 2 showed very effectively how he escaped, and with there being about a thousand years worth of Grid Time there's plenty of time for him to still be turned into Rinizler. I'm getting tired of having to explain this over and over again....

Everybody go join End of Line, an awesome TRON Roleplay forum! http://troneol.b1.jcink.com/index.php?
 
laphtiya
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Posts: 940
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Thursday, January, 10, 2013 8:27 AM
Sso02V Wrote:
Tzigone Wrote:And he would be able to open the portal and go back for more people/equipment
He wouldn't even need to go back. All he'd need is a few keystrokes and he'd have a thousand more war machines lined up to come out through the portal.

This is probably what would happen, with all the extra resources he would (such as CPU load and RAM) he could just copy paste as much as he wanted. Also its not a matter of if he could take over the world, can you imagine the havoc he would cause during his attempt? What if CLU Modified the beaming weapon and beamed people into a massive rectifier system he creates, every person that get his by a weapon is transported, rectified and then put back on the front lines. Who's to say this isn't what he did in the Grid during Flynn's counter attack?


 
/Charon
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Posts: 49
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Thursday, January, 10, 2013 12:04 PM
Perhaps Clu just wanted to park his army next to the portal... personally get out, simply somehow connect the grid to the internet,

but to avoid having to figure out the real world, along with a dozen programming languages and whatnot...simply go back in, and drive his army over, taking over the internet from the inside, repurposing anything useful along the way.

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DarthMeow504
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Posts: 128
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Thursday, January, 10, 2013 5:33 PM
Exactly right. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Shiva laser is a world conquering weapon, no doubt about it.

In the scenario I proposed, the Shiva in Flynn's basement starts firing, digitizing all matter in range and transforming it for use to spit out the army and it's equipment. As long as it's functioning, it can continue to do so as more matter is fed into it. Moreover, it can make more Shivas on mobile platforms that will spread out and continue to digitize and convert everything in their path. Those Shiva platforms make more Shiva platforms, and the force grows exponentially from there. Literally everything in their path is digitized, including infrastructure, enemy vehicles and equipment, and people. Yes, everyone, civilians and soldiers alike, beamed into the Grid, fed into a rectifier, and then back out as more soldiers for Clu.

There's no known defense against a Shiva digitizer. The only chance humanity would have would be to immediately go nuclear and destroy the Flynn basement Shiva before it can make more and Clu's army spreads too far. The chances of a nuclear strike on an American city being authorized before it's too late are next to nil. They will certainly try conventional forces first, which gives Clu all the time he needs to replicate more lasers and spread them out. Once that happens, it's like Flynn said:

"Game Over, man".


 
Kat
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Posts: 2,348
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Thursday, January, 10, 2013 9:12 PM
But do we know if human beings can even be rectified? That might be interesting, if Clu assumes they can, goes to town, and finds out otherwise...

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
ShadowDragon1
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Posts: 2,050
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Thursday, January, 10, 2013 10:20 PM
DarthMeow504 Wrote:Exactly right. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Shiva laser is a world conquering weapon, no doubt about it.

In the scenario I proposed, the Shiva in Flynn's basement starts firing, digitizing all matter in range and transforming it for use to spit out the army and it's equipment. As long as it's functioning, it can continue to do so as more matter is fed into it. Moreover, it can make more Shivas on mobile platforms that will spread out and continue to digitize and convert everything in their path. Those Shiva platforms make more Shiva platforms, and the force grows exponentially from there. Literally everything in their path is digitized, including infrastructure, enemy vehicles and equipment, and people. Yes, everyone, civilians and soldiers alike, beamed into the Grid, fed into a rectifier, and then back out as more soldiers for Clu.

There's no known defense against a Shiva digitizer. The only chance humanity would have would be to immediately go nuclear and destroy the Flynn basement Shiva before it can make more and Clu's army spreads too far. The chances of a nuclear strike on an American city being authorized before it's too late are next to nil. They will certainly try conventional forces first, which gives Clu all the time he needs to replicate more lasers and spread them out. Once that happens, it's like Flynn said:

"Game Over, man".

plausible speculation. But where would the first Shiva Laser get all the energy to do that, some sort of back-up generator seemed (sounded like it kicked in when the laser was activated) to be powering it, where would the raw matter (to be re-assembled) be stored stored? there was only 4 containment cannisters on the shiva laser. There's only so much matter that can be converted into energy and then re-intergrated into new forms. and still than Shiva laser needs some sort of power supply. so Massive batteries or some kind of solar cells would have to be replicated and incoperated onto those mobile Shiva Laser platforms too and it'd take time to charge up the batteries to have enough power to do all that digitizing and re-materialization. Even if half the matter digitized is used as massive electric gigawattage to power each laser it'd still require a time and alot of matter. Could it work, maybe? But I'm doubtful.

The Shiva Laser in Flynn's basement COULD try to digitize matter from the surronding objects in the basment or the whole building, but it just might overload in the process too, Clu could be "Flynn Clone" sure but the whole army? I am again doubtful they all would be materialized and I'm doubtful even ONE of those vehicles would even function in the real world. Flynn is smart yes, but I doubt there was 24th century level enginerring knowledge on his disc (and i'm doubtful Clu ever developed real world tech to incorperate into all his vehicle simulations to make them function according to real world physics and real gravity) to be able to upgrade those simulations to function as real vehicles in the "Real World". I again doubt Clu or Flynn possessed som massive advanced tenchnological/engineering knowledge.

IMO it would take alot more memory and engineering technology that's 50-100 years more advanced than what it contianed on Flynn's master-key disc to accomplish that. Even then, that computer and the laser siphoning all the power from the entire city's power I think. Since it's sci-fi yeah IT might happen the way you describe. I think it'd be more poinaint if only Clu made it out and the shiva overloads. He stuck in a world basically alien to him and no real power or army to "bring Perfection" to the alien "real world" i love to see him freak out and go mad cursing his fate.

"The film is about finding human connection in an increasingly digital world." - Joseph Kosinski

 
DarthMeow504
User

Posts: 128
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Friday, January, 11, 2013 4:22 AM
ShadowDragon1 Wrote:
DarthMeow504 Wrote:Exactly right. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Shiva laser is a world conquering weapon, no doubt about it.

plausible speculation. But where would the first Shiva Laser get all the energy to do that, some sort of back-up generator seemed (sounded like it kicked in when the laser was activated) to be powering it, where would the raw matter (to be re-assembled) be stored?

(snip)

IMO it would take alot more memory and engineering technology that's 50-100 years more advanced than what it contained on Flynn's master-key disc to accomplish that. Even then, that computer and the laser siphoning all the power from the entire city's power I think.

e=mc2, my friend... a single kilogram of matter converted to energy (and what do you think the digitizing process does? It transmutes matter back and forth from energy) is the amount of energy contained in the Hiroshima bomb. That is more than enough energy to power anything, thank you very much. If the Shiva required as massive a power source as you say, Flynn would need a lot more than a backup generator, he'd need a nuclear power plant in his basement. Power generation will not be a problem.

We don't know exactly how much matter a Shiva the size of Flynn's basement unit can process at a time. We do know it's at least enough to process an entire human adult at once, so let's say 250 pounds just for sake of argument. It can store two adults worth of matter in it's "buffer" at minimum, as Kevin's matter was stored and Sam's was added to it. Two adult's matter was stored, even if only one of them were scanned/rezzed at a time. So we have a minimum of 250 pounds per rez cycle and a 500 pound buffer. As to time per cycle, well in the first movie rezzing in Kevin took about thirty seconds. In Legacy, it seemed nearly instantaneous. So if no time was cut from Legacy's sequence, it can process a minimum of 250 pounds per second, once for intake and another for output. Worst case scenario is that it processes matter at 250 pounds per minute, but I choose to interpret that as too slow for Kevin's doomsday prediction to be true and thus prefer the 250lb/2second rule. That's still rather slow. Those tanks, and especially that ship, are gonna take a while at that pace.

So logically, the first thing you'd want to do is increase your processing capacity, or as I like to call it your rez bandwidth. So the first thing you'd want to do is add a second laser to allow simultaneous input and output. That gives you a minimum of a quarter ton per second of rez bandwidth. Most likely that task could be accomplished in the first minute or less, if the Shiva assembly is no more than a few tons in total weight. That's a very generous estimate, as it didn't seem that damned huge in the film. Your rez bandwidth as you're outputting that second laser is 16 seconds per ton. As soon as that second laser is complete, you double your bandwidth, and can now process at 8 seconds per ton. Two more lasers could then be completed in the time it took to create the second one. Now you're at 4, processing matter at a rez bandwidth of 4 seconds per ton. In the same amount of time, you make four more, for a total of eight, bringing your rez bandwidth to 2 seconds per ton. Then you do it again, again doubling the amount of lasers to 16 and your rez bandwidth to 1 ton per second. Now you're starting to make some progress! Roughly five minutes since you started firing the Shiva. Where the wall of Flynn's basement once was there's now a small cavern carved out and a cluster of Shiva lasers where only one was. Nobody even knows what's going on yet.

It keeps going. Every ten seconds at one ton per second it can create a ten ton vehicle that carries a mobile Shiva. Each one about the size of a moving van. Six per minute. So after ten minutes total (five to create the 16 laser cluster, five to make the mobile platforms) you have thirty of these things ready to go. Ten minutes, have the cops even been called? Does anyone even notice what's going on beneath the surface? Probably not, and there's very little chance of being able to do anything if they did. The police, if they're even aware of anything at all, are en route with a patrol unit or two which almost certainly haven't arrived yet.

The Shiva cluster takes 5 minutes, just for cooling, to be charitable. Ten minutes steady operation, five minutes cooling. But the 30 Shiva mobile platforms are not resting. They're ready to roll. They break through the surface to street level and move out. Each takes a different direction and spreads out, finding itself a nice spot with something large in the range of it's laser like a building or other piece of infrastructure. First thing it does is use the 500 pounds in it's buffer that it picked up on the way out to build a barricade around itself, a process which takes about 5 seconds. It's not a lot, but 500 pounds of high strength alloy in the form of a geodesic dome framework with plating over it is nothing to sneeze at So while Cluster 1 is cooling, each mobile platform has driven a short distance away and encased itself in a cocoon of metal sufficient to repel personnel and small arms fire, which is the worst the local police could throw at it even if they were to attack immediately instead of taking any time to stop and try to figure out what the hell is going on.

At minute 15, those 30 lasers begin the same process. In ten minutes, they'll have another 30 mobile platforms ready to go. EACH. Thirty times thirty is NINE HUNDRED mobile platforms ready to roll out. We're 25 minutes into the invasion and the cops are still trying to figure out what in the hell is going on. The first units arrived at Flynn's in tie to find a hole in the ground with 30 mysterious trucks coming out of it, a hole which was sealed behind them in mere seconds. They called it in, and put out an APB on those trucks, because something is going on and they want to know what the hell it is. So long as they cannot route officers to the stopping point locations and get through the barricade domes protecting the platforms in under ten minutes, they'll be suddenly overwhelmed with 900 of the damned things ready to repeat the process. And they'll have to get them all, too, because each one that survives will spit out thirty more mobile platforms. In under thirty minutes, if none are destroyed in the small time available, there are 900 mobile platforms. Too many for any police force to hope of dealing with. Fifteen minutes later, there's 27,000 of them. That's TWENTY-SEVEN THOUSAND. In about 45 minutes from the first moment of the first laser firing.. Good luck stopping them with any force you can assemble in that amount of time.

Those 27k mobile platforms spend the next next fifteen minutes rezzing up 5 tanks each to protect themselves with (one fifty ton tank per minute after rezzing up to a 16 laser cluster) and cooling down. It's now an hour in and you have 27,000 rezzing clusters protected by a force of 135,000 tanks. You are now authorized to shit bricks.

Every minute thereafter, each of those 27k rezzing stations can produce 1 tank, five 10 ton attack helicopter type vehicles, or 5 mobile Shiva platforms. Let's say that, to make sure they cannot all be wiped out by a WMD strike, the next five minutes are spent making clusters of 2 tanks, 10 choppers and 5 Shiva trucks. Those clusters are then sent out to spread out and begin the whole process again. That's 27,000 of these mobile groupings with plenty of firepower to escort the mobile Shiva platforms and make sure they make it where they're going. Each one drives an hour away from the epicenter of the invasion. They arrive at their destination and spend five minutes building up to a 16 laser cluster and building an armor shell and another five minutes creating more mobile clusters. At two hours and fifteen minutes, you have 54,000 rez clusters spread over a diameter of approximately 60 miles, and the forward stations ready to unleash more mobile clusters to expand farther.

In the meantime, Cluster One can be spending it's time doubling and redoubling it's Shiva lasers, bringing it to 64 within minutes of the first thirty trucks rolling out. It fortifies it's position, and makes more Shiva trucks as necessary to replace any that are destroyed in the early waves, just in case. It produces protective units, again just in case. Then it multiplies it's laser capacity four times more, to 1,024 lasers. This is in minutes 15-30 from Moment Zero. Cluster One is now a fortified base with plenty of armor, tanks, artillery / antiaircraft / antimissile cannons (consider each one roughly equivalent to one tank), assault helicopters, and a rez bandwidth of 64 tons per second. Pretty damned sweet for just thirty minutes! From that point on it can rez up one tank or a half dozen assault choppers per second, making it certain to be able to replace units faster than they're destroyed. It's pretty much unkillable at this point.

It's surrounded by a ring of 27,000 rezzing stations, which at the 1 hour and fifteen minute mark can begin fortifying and increasing their capacity as well. That's in addition to the 135,000 tanks already there. Say they each go to 128 lasers per station, for a rez bandwidth of 8 tons per second. Each one can then crank out a 32 ton fighter plane (the size of the F-22 Raptor) every 4 seconds. Let's call it every six seconds to be generous and allow time for cooling. That's ten planes per minute. Or 270,000 per minute for all rezzing stations in the first circle combined. If each spends five minutes rezzing up assault choppers for defense before upping it's capacity and beginning on the fighter planes, each is defended by 5 tanks and 25 choppers. So without Cluster One and without rezzing up any more defensive units, that's a total of 135,000 tanks and 675,000 choppers defensive force and an offensive force of 270,000 fighter planes PER MINUTE for as long as they need to make them.

You really hardly need Cluster One or the second (and subsequent!) rings to have an unstoppable army at that point, but you will anyhow. Every hour and 15 minutes another ring is replicated, should you need them. Or you can just stick with the first two rings around Cluster One and start sending out flying Shiva platforms instead of rolling ones escorted by choppers or planes and build a new central Cluster in every city , and have a new central cluster and two rings within three hours of arrival.

Exponential functions are a bitch, aren't they?






 
laphtiya
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Posts: 940
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Friday, January, 11, 2013 10:31 AM
Kat Wrote:But do we know if human beings can even be rectified? That might be interesting, if Clu assumes they can, goes to town, and finds out otherwise...

Why not you can brain wash people right?


 
CardioFunk
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RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Friday, January, 11, 2013 1:53 PM
Realistically, I'd doubt that the human mind is formatted the same as a program. But then again, the Identity disks have no problem connecting to a users mind. So the interface is there.order abortion pill abortion pill buy online where to buy abortion pill


 
Kat
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Posts: 2,348
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Friday, January, 11, 2013 7:56 PM
DarthMeow504 Wrote:
e=mc2, my friend... a single kilogram of matter converted to energy (and what do you think the digitizing process does? It transmutes matter back and forth from energy) is the amount of energy contained in the Hiroshima bomb. That is more than enough energy to power anything, thank you very much. If the Shiva required as massive a power source as you say, Flynn would need a lot more than a backup generator, he'd need a nuclear power plant in his basement. Power generation will not be a problem.

Flynn himself states that the laser draws an enormous amount of energy-- enough to only run for about ten minutes in real-world time. And that's just to *keep the portal open*, not even to process matter.

Also, the thing would have to generate an enormous amount of heat, especially if, as you say, it uses its own matter conversion for energy. I don't think your cooling time is sufficient, unless Flynn's got a significantly high-tech cooling system on that thing. Hell, a frigging low-grade paper shredder takes more than a couple minutes to cool down enough for operation.

And again, we're assuming Clu has all of this real-world and technological knowledge to do all of that. Yet I'm still unable to figure out why he would. Does he even have the specs to create lasers? And where is he getting all of these tanks and fighter planes and helicopters? He sure as hell wasn't carrying nearly that amount of equipment to the portal. IF he even has access to some sort of information that would allow him to create functioning tactical and assault equipment-- and again, I haven't a clue how, especially without an internet connection-- where's it all going to come from? We've never seen that the laser does anything but transfer existing matter/information-- it's not a fancy copier machine. It has to have something to rez out to begin with. What you see is what you get. I doubt creation of stuff from Grid to the real world is a "don't dream it, be it" sort of enterprise (really, don't get me going on a Tron/Rocky Horror crossover. It wouldn't be pretty. Damn funny, yeah, but not pretty).


laphtiya Wrote:
Kat Wrote:But do we know if human beings can even be rectified? That might be interesting, if Clu assumes they can, goes to town, and finds out otherwise...

Why not you can brain wash people right?
Yes, but it's not instantaneous, and it's certainly not going to be accomplished by feeding them through a machine. Gather up a bunch of the weak-willed ones and put them in a camp for several months to years, perhaps, but...
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What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
ShadowDragon1
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Posts: 2,050
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Friday, January, 11, 2013 8:21 PM
Agree with FlynnAbides. THE MCP as megalomaniacal A.I. was first presented in film in TRON, "Terminator" copied that idea with "SkyNet".

IMO It's far more plausable that the fleet was converted to be able to be transmited to "the net" and perhaps Clu as "Flynn" once materialized in the Real World would connenct the Grid's Host Server with wire-less internet access so his forces could invade all the computer systems across the world and sease control.

"The film is about finding human connection in an increasingly digital world." - Joseph Kosinski

 
laphtiya
User

Posts: 940
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Monday, January, 14, 2013 8:50 AM
Kat Wrote:

laphtiya Wrote:
Kat Wrote:But do we know if human beings can even be rectified? That might be interesting, if Clu assumes they can, goes to town, and finds out otherwise...

Why not you can brain wash people right?
Yes, but it's not instantaneous, and it's certainly not going to be accomplished by feeding them through a machine. Gather up a bunch of the weak-willed ones and put them in a camp for several months to years, perhaps, but...

Yeah but he could digitise them put them through the rectifier and there you go more soldiers for the cause
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Kat
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Posts: 2,348
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Monday, January, 14, 2013 7:05 PM
laphtiya Wrote:Yeah but he could digitise them put them through the rectifier and there you go more soldiers for the cause
I dunno, I still just don't think it's probably that easy with the human mind.

With a program, I could argue that you could probably pull up an interface of their coding and go from there. Human beings aren't quite so open-source-- we don't even remotely understand much in the world of neuroscience, let alone how to alter it instananeously.


What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
laphtiya
User

Posts: 940
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Wednesday, January, 16, 2013 3:28 AM
Kat Wrote:
laphtiya Wrote:Yeah but he could digitise them put them through the rectifier and there you go more soldiers for the cause
I dunno, I still just don't think it's probably that easy with the human mind.

With a program, I could argue that you could probably pull up an interface of their coding and go from there. Human beings aren't quite so open-source-- we don't even remotely understand much in the world of neuroscience, let alone how to alter it instananeously.

It would be interesting to find out though. Maybe it would take longer but even if you couldnt rectify them at least they would be out of the way.order abortion pill http://unclejohnsprojects.com/template/default.aspx?morning-after-pill-price where to buy abortion pill


 
PunkMaister
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Posts: 34
RE: Clu Invasion force VS User military

on Saturday, February, 09, 2013 12:43 PM
The thing is real world physics and the gird physics are vastly different. Not to mention the digitzer/replicator/transporter in Flyn's basement most likely does not have the capacity to replicate something as big as the Rectifier ship. But even then with physics being different here. The Rectifier ship would not look the same nor work on the same principles as it's grid counterpart. in this world it would probably resemble the flying super-fortress in the movie the Avengers. and would require nuclear fusion to freaking run...

As for repurposing humans Biochip and brainwashing technology already exists...




 
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