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 Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?


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Kat
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Posts: 2,342
Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Sunday, September, 02, 2012 9:54 PM
So I realized in this thread: http://www.tron-sector.com/forums/default.aspx?a=top&id=445650 that I wonder whether Flynn "taking himself out of the equation" was the right thing to do.

From that thread:
I'm really not sure I agree with his decision to "take himself out of the equation" in that manner-- in fact, I wonder if his obsession with that concept may have been an attempt to convince himself that him giving up on fighting Clu all those cycles ago was okay [see Beat of Your Heart fic re: Flynn and apathy/nonaction]-- but that's a subject for another thread if anyone so wishes, as it's way off-topic for this one.

When is it appropriate to take yourself out of the equation? And is Flynn interpreting the idea correctly to begin with? I might think of that concept as being more psychological than actually physical-- much like the Christian concept of "dying to self." To stop thinking of yourself and think of something greater than yourself for once-- IOW to stop thinking/behaving in an entirely selfish way. Not only may it possibly help you to work toward a solution that benefits the greater good rather than the individual, but when you look beyond yourself and your own emotions and interests, you have a better capacity for empathy with others (something some political views are sorely lacking, but I don't mean this to be a political thread so let's skip the debate. I just meant it as an example).

So I guess if you like, we can also discuss whether Flynn's interpretation of the concept is even the right one (and by extension: if not, is that meant to be inherent to Flynn, or is it instead a lack in the film's writers and their understanding of the concept [or Bridges himself, since he directed so much of Flynn's characterization from what I hear]?).


Anyway, that aside. Whether it's right or not. We've discussed before Quorra's instance of "taking herself out of the equation" and whether it was right or wrong, whether it did more harm than good or vice versa. And I've stated my views on that episode, so I'm not going to discuss her here. But Flynn himself. Whether, as I stated in the other thread, he clings to the concept in an attempt to justify his inaction against Clu and fall into apathy. And also whether he does the right thing. IF he decided relatively early on that he was not going back to the real world-- whether his intent was to reintegrate with Clu all along, or remain behind and try to convince him of... whatever he might be trying to convince him of, perhaps an attempt to talk him down from his plan to take over the real world and/or being a tyrant in the Grid, then that would be proof that he's quite invested in the idea of taking oneself out of the equation (in a literal, physical sense-- see my third paragraph above). And the question is why, and whether that's right.

The thing is, there may have been another way, as I stated in the other thread. If Sam and Quorra had indeed escaped and left Flynn behind, but alive-- it's entirely possible (likely even probable) that he and Clu would've ended up fighting anyway, ending in either the death of one or reintegration anyway. But there still would've been that chance that Flynn could've survived. But the way it happened, he pretty much sealed the deal. Maybe he was so obsessed with the "taking oneself out of the equation" idea, or so adamant that he was NOT going to fight Clu, that he couldn't see an alternative. But in making the choice he did, to not seek an alternative... he did the same thing to Sam he did all those years ago: left him alone. It's possible there may've been a way for everyone to get out safely in the end. But Flynn once again made his own decision without, it seems, thinking it through thoroughly, and once again sentenced his son to a life without him.

So when does a grand idea like "taking oneself out of the equation" become wrong when it may hurt people?buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

What do you want? I'm busy.


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Chaos.... good news.
 
J
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Posts: 247
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Monday, September, 03, 2012 1:38 AM
It becomes a bad idea when it harms or betrays others. I'd like to think he withdrew to try and guard Quorra, the last remnant of the Iso "miracle." However, he didn't seem to have any plans for what would happen in case of his death, or any plans for her aside from hiding her as long as he could. He wasn't going to keep her locked up in the Outlands forever, was he? And while, yes, she represented something incredible, aren't the Programs also miracles in their own right, worthy of care and respect? Didn't Flynn have a responsibility to those who were trying to resist Clu? buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

It's an entire universe in there, one we created, but it's beyond us now. Really. It's outgrown us. You know, every time you shut off your computer...do you know what you're doing? Have you ever reformatted a hard drive? Deleted old software? Destroyed an entire universe?"

-- Jet Bradley, Tron: Ghost in the Machine on why being a User isn't necessarily a good thing.
 
Kat
User

Posts: 2,342
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Monday, September, 03, 2012 10:50 AM
J Wrote:It becomes a bad idea when it harms or betrays others. I'd like to think he withdrew to try and guard Quorra, the last remnant of the Iso "miracle." However, he didn't seem to have any plans for what would happen in case of his death, or any plans for her aside from hiding her as long as he could. He wasn't going to keep her locked up in the Outlands forever, was he? And while, yes, she represented something incredible, aren't the Programs also miracles in their own right, worthy of care and respect? Didn't Flynn have a responsibility to those who were trying to resist Clu?

Yes, that is what I wondered as well. I'm not sure when he decided to take her out into the real world. I imagine it was right when he decided to go after Sam; I don't think he planned to leave her there while he himself left. And then he realized he may not be leaving after all. And I know-- the old parental-self-sacrifice thing kicked in and he just didn't think.

But now he's left these two poor clueless kids to do-- what? Half an hour ago in real-world time, Sam hadn't an idea this world even existed. Now he's been tossed into a childhood bedtime story and is stuck taking care of someone FROM there and possibly trying to fix the place and trying to figure out what to do with his knowledge of it whether he sets it back up or not. This on top of having his whole worldview thrown awry since he's just found out what happened to his dad, been reunited with him, and then watched his dad die (to save him, no less). Quorra's been living in exile for a thousand years and now she's thrown into this weird new world she only has a vague knowledge of and is completely dependent on a dude she just met. Things are gonna be peachy, Flynn, it's okay. They didn't need you more than you felt the need to play a martyr or try to make things right or whatever it is you were so stuck on doing. Looks like he completely missed the point, if his idea of taking himself out of the equation apparently *didn't* include thinking of others... he may've liked the idea but apparently didn't fully consider its consequences.

I hope the dude at least left some journals or something...


And yeah, you're right about Q, of course. And he tried to do the same thing to Sam. If done his way, the portal would've closed and all three would've been trapped. And then what? His "sit and wait for someone else to do something" plan hadn't been working out too well for the last 20 years/thousand cycles; what did he expect to change? He would've eventually realized it, of course-- "oh man, I screwed over my kid, too"-- but, too late by that point. (but, now I'm going off-topic and I think I had another thread some time back on whether Sam/Flynn/Quorra all did the right thing during the course of the story.)buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
J
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Posts: 247
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Wednesday, September, 05, 2012 6:00 AM
Y'see, and this is one more reason Legacy frustrates me. So many unanswered questions, and I came away with the feeling that Flynn had spent 20+ years holding an Idiot Ball and everyone else in range pays for it. In some way, going down with his creation was both getting off easy (he's dead and not having to live with the fallout), and something he should have done a long time ago.

Meanwhile? The Programs were abandoned by their User giving them more incentive to side with the Dark Side-aligned AI, or get slaughtered. All but one Iso were hunted down and destroyed. Tron himself was left to hang and get hit with every fate worse than de-rez. In the analog world, Roy loses everything. Alan loses the better part of his life trying to hold what little he can together, and Sam's condemned to clean up the mess. (Frankly wouldn't have blamed the kid if he yanked the hard drive, tossed it in a degausser, ran over it with the Ducati a few times, and tossed what was left over the Warren Desmond Bridge - no sequels, but would not have blamed Sam a bit)

So we have a guy who pretty much used his friends, carelessly treated an entire world full of sentient beings like a personal playground, left them to the "mercy" of his twisted creation, left no contingency plans in case he was incapacitated or killed, and pretty much planned to get his son trapped in there with him...

I mean. what the hell, hero?! Seriously, if there's a capacity for him to come back as a virtual ghost, someone has to tear him a new one over all this crap! buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

It's an entire universe in there, one we created, but it's beyond us now. Really. It's outgrown us. You know, every time you shut off your computer...do you know what you're doing? Have you ever reformatted a hard drive? Deleted old software? Destroyed an entire universe?"

-- Jet Bradley, Tron: Ghost in the Machine on why being a User isn't necessarily a good thing.
 
Kat
User

Posts: 2,342
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Wednesday, September, 05, 2012 8:02 AM
All very true. Though really, if one element of the Flynn we see in T82 held over... that was it. We already knew the dude wasn't entirely mature and selfless. (Though you might think that within a thousand years of meditation, he'd have figured that out.)

I always wondered... did he just plan on staying in there forever, then? He must've known there was no way anyone else was going to rise up and go after Clu by that point-- even the numbers of free programs must've been getting pretty scarce. Look at the programs Clu destroyed just in the Games we saw, and the numbers he rectified... now imagine those kinds of numbers going through for a thousand cycles. I haven't any idea how there were even any left (unless the ones we saw rectified at the end were all of the ones he gathered up in that whole time and he just stored them until then??) So he can't have thought anything would happen.

Without the portal, no way to get out. And there are fates worse than death-- like living in the middle of nowhere for a thousand years, missing your old life and family, possibly in fear for your safety the whole time-- so you'd think he would've just gotten it over with.buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
emdeesee
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Posts: 216
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Thursday, September, 13, 2012 12:21 PM
J Wrote:So we have a guy who pretty much used his friends, carelessly treated an entire world full of sentient beings like a personal playground, left them to the "mercy" of his twisted creation, left no contingency plans in case he was incapacitated or killed, and pretty much planned to get his son trapped in there with him...

I mean. what the hell, hero?! Seriously, if there's a capacity for him to come back as a virtual ghost, someone has to tear him a new one over all this crap!

This is why when anyone asks, and they usually don't, I say that Tron/T:L are a Greek Tragedy. Flynn's flaw is hubris, in spades.

In T82, was Flynn heroically trying to take down the MCP and free the system? No. He was trying to recover intellectual property with, at best, dubious provenance. The MCP business is just a subplot in the Flynn arc.

Now, consider: the teleportation system is Lora's life's work, with the potential to change the whole world. Where is Lora in T:L? Nowhere. How does that happen? (AFAICT the canon is sketchy on this, but any explanation where the world at large is unaware of the laser's potential seems shady.) Where is the laser? Hidden for decades in the basement of a video arcade. Has the world been changed by it? No. Flynn's response to discovering a portal to another universe? Hide it, keep it for himself, and play god with it.

Three acts of creation continue Flynn's tragic arc, contributing to his downfall, but ultimately leading to his redemption:

  • He creates an imperfect copy of himself, because he's convinced this universe, which existed before he "discovered" it, needs his constant attention.
  • He creates the conditions under which the Isos can manifest.
  • He has a son with his (disposable for narrative purposes) wife.

Clu, though jealous and capricious, seems to have a pretty good handle on Flynn. He knows Flynn is selfish and immature, because Clu, by and large, is Flynn. I think Clu wants to be the heroic leader of his universe, but he is hampered by having Flynn's own flaws hard-coded into him, so the best he can manage is to be a tyrannical despot, but a despot who knows that his realm has been enslaved by a callous deity with little regard for its inhabitants. (A deity of whom the despot is an avatar. Ow, my head.)

Realizing too late the danger posed by Clu, Flynn barely manages to preserve a small fragment of his Iso creation, finds he is trapped in the universe where he deified himself, and is forced into hiding.

After centuries pondering his failings, Flynn is only spurred to action when Clu again threatens Flynn's own creation, this time Sam, and in the mode of Tragedy can only achieve redemption finally through self-annihilation.buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

What do you call a program who brings a disc to a light cycle battle? Derezzed.
 
Pilgrim1099
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Posts: 606
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Thursday, September, 13, 2012 7:19 PM
This is a good thread relating to Flynn's situation and Clu's. The more I think about Legacy, the more I realized some scenes were 'inspired' or lifted from by the Legacy writers.

First off, there was a film called Little Buddha played by Keanu Reeves. Mind you, Flynn supposedly had Buddhist beliefs in the film. If this was the case, then check this clip out:
http://youtu.be/1aJO9l4p0dE
Wait for the 1:30 minute mark where Siddhartha lifts Mara out as his mirror image. This similar to what Flynn did to CLU, reflective on that belief system. I'm not sure if the writers intended this as a 'tongue in cheek' reference but it's possible.

Also, the reintegration scene where he and CLU are fused back together resulting in an explosion is definitely not original and was most likely lifted from "Matrix 3", again, where Keanu Reeves plays Neo taking down Agent Smith. IF you never saw Matrix 3, then my apologies for the advance spoilers but it had to be noted.

So we're seeing two similar sequences of that reintegration scene.

Emdeecee has a point that Flynn took the easy way out by reintegration and not dealing with the consequences. They should'nt have gone that route if there was intention to create a sense of redemption for him. If the latter is intended, then they have no choice but to ressurrect Flynn in order for him to face the consequences and deal with the fallout.

And the only way to do that is if Sam ports the memory card into the ENCOM system to keep the Grid on 'life support' or build his own server privately. If they put that memory card into the ENCOM servers, "1989" Tron (B.R.=Before Rinzler) would be facing his ENCOM counterpart who would be many times more powerful than he, due to his surviving the fall into the water, and probably 'immigrating' into that new server.

So in order for Flynn to face the music, his ressurrection has to happen to which at greater risk of complicating the storyline with the Dillingers' involvement, and forcing the producers to compress the story into a cluster of a mess. That's why I think it would be wise for them to break it up into two more movies, or do one more movie and then build a new animated series POST LEGACY (not Uprising) to flesh things out.

EDIT: Oops, I meant the 2:50 minute mark on that clip.buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


 
emdeesee
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Posts: 216
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Thursday, September, 13, 2012 7:57 PM
Pilgrim1099 Wrote:Emdeecee has a point that Flynn took the easy way out by reintegration and not dealing with the consequences. They should'nt have gone that route if there was intention to create a sense of redemption for him. If the latter is intended, then they have no choice but to ressurrect Flynn in order for him to face the consequences and deal with the fallout.

I think Flynn had no other choice. If he hadn't moved on Clu, Clu would have reached Sam and Quorra and the portal, and who can say what would have happened next.

Flynn's hand was forced; there was nothing else he could do. In order for Sam and Quorra to survive, he had to make the choice to destroy himself. In that sense, he was taking himself out of the equation.

Now Sam and Quorra (and Alan and maybe Tron) are left to pick up the pieces.buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

What do you call a program who brings a disc to a light cycle battle? Derezzed.
 
Kat
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Posts: 2,342
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Thursday, September, 13, 2012 10:21 PM
emdeesee Wrote:In T82, was Flynn heroically trying to take down the MCP and free the system? No. He was trying to recover intellectual property with, at best, dubious provenance. The MCP business is just a subplot in the Flynn arc.

After centuries pondering his failings, Flynn is only spurred to action when Clu again threatens Flynn's own creation, this time Sam, and in the mode of Tragedy can only achieve redemption finally through self-annihilation.


Pretty much. I've argued before-- though I can't remember if it was here-- that there really are no heroic users in either film. In the first one, Flynn just wants to get the hell out of there and get his stuff. In the second, Sam just wants to get the hell out of there with his dad in tow, and Flynn... well, Flynn only wants to get the hell out of there because Sam forced his hand-- otherwise HIS way is that they *both* are stuck.

(I can just imagine:
Flynn: "see son, we're together again! Forever! Uh... in here."
Sam: "Uh, yeah, Dad, this wasn't exactly how I always imagined it...")

But otherwise? Neither of them act really selflessly or for the actual cause of the system/programs-- though I've also argued that depending on how you value program vs. human lives, that may be the correct attitude.


Pilgrim1099 Wrote:This is a good thread relating to Flynn's situation and Clu's. The more I think about Legacy, the more I realized some scenes were 'inspired' or lifted from by the Legacy writers.

I swear I have seen soooo many Star Wars parallels. But maybe that's just me.buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
Pilgrim1099
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Posts: 606
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Thursday, September, 13, 2012 11:53 PM
Kat Wrote:
emdeesee Wrote:In T82, was Flynn heroically trying to take down the MCP and free the system? No. He was trying to recover intellectual property with, at best, dubious provenance. The MCP business is just a subplot in the Flynn arc.

After centuries pondering his failings, Flynn is only spurred to action when Clu again threatens Flynn's own creation, this time Sam, and in the mode of Tragedy can only achieve redemption finally through self-annihilation.


Pretty much. I've argued before-- though I can't remember if it was here-- that there really are no heroic users in either film. In the first one, Flynn just wants to get the hell out of there and get his stuff. In the second, Sam just wants to get the hell out of there with his dad in tow, and Flynn... well, Flynn only wants to get the hell out of there because Sam forced his hand-- otherwise HIS way is that they *both* are stuck.

(I can just imagine:
Flynn: "see son, we're together again! Forever! Uh... in here."
Sam: "Uh, yeah, Dad, this wasn't exactly how I always imagined it...")

But otherwise? Neither of them act really selflessly or for the actual cause of the system/programs-- though I've also argued that depending on how you value program vs. human lives, that may be the correct attitude.


Pilgrim1099 Wrote:This is a good thread relating to Flynn's situation and Clu's. The more I think about Legacy, the more I realized some scenes were 'inspired' or lifted from by the Legacy writers.

I swear I have seen soooo many Star Wars parallels. But maybe that's just me.

Well, the Star Wars parallels are'nt lost on me so I know what you're talking about. It's definitely in there as a template. It's probably one of the most templated films, if not the only. Although, I wanted to bring up Little Buddha and the scene where Siddhartha meets Mara (the demon). It was very interesting because that part reminded me greatly of Flynn (Siddhartha) and CLU (Mara) were reflections of each other and that the former practiced Buddhism, however the difference is that CLU was'nt behaving as a demon trying to tempt him but rather rebel quietly behind his back. So CLU became 'enlightened' about the fallacies of Flynn and caught on, figuring out a way to trap him.

It was a pretty good clip of Little Buddha, though. I saw it many years ago on cable tv which Bertolucci directed. Beautifully shot film.
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Kat
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Posts: 2,342
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Friday, September, 14, 2012 12:15 AM
I saw it yeeeeeears ago... I was probably around middle-school age or so, as I think that was when I was most into Keanu Reeves, which is probably part of the reason I saw the film. Maybe I'll have to watch it again.


(One of these days I mean to watch again and write down everything that screams "STAR WARS!!!!!!!!!!!" to me... Off the top of my head I can never remember much. There's the obvious "I'm not your father, Sam," the part where Sam and Quorra fly down to the flight deck to meet up with Flynn [Luke and Leia swinging across that huge pit], the part where Sam's the gunner in the light jet [doesn't he even turn around and yell "I got him!" or something?]... and that's all I can remember this late at night.)buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
J
User

Posts: 247
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Friday, September, 14, 2012 8:21 AM
Oh, hell. Let's just throw out the BIGGEST Star Wars shoutout:

Former Big Hero? Check
Fallen to the Dark Side and spent more time as a bad guy than he did on light side? Uh, check.
Black suit? Check
MASSIVE damage under that suit? Check.
Faceless helmet? Check.
Strange noise coming from the helmet? Check
Dragon/Enforcer for the jerk in charge? Check
Essentially a slave, despite the apparently privileged position? CHECK!
Betrays the "Emperor" in the end out of love? Check.
Animated prequel series centers on his padawan? Check.

(Anyone want to do some Fan Art along this line?)

And yeah. I know Disney was trying to play Flynn as one of the good guys, but the evidence just points to a charismatic jerk who treated the Programs like toys, threw them under the bus when things got bad, abdicated to his psychotic double...And his analog-world friends were treated no better as he steals Walter and Lora's laser and Alan's security software (Uh, hey, wasn't the fact your intellectual property got ripped off what started this in the first place, el duderino?), does not bother telling even his own wife what he's doing, doesn't leave behind any contingency plans in case of his death/disappearance, and leaves this wide swath of destruction through his friends' lives as a result.

I'd REALLY like to think better of the guy, but there's something missing on the numbers here. buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

It's an entire universe in there, one we created, but it's beyond us now. Really. It's outgrown us. You know, every time you shut off your computer...do you know what you're doing? Have you ever reformatted a hard drive? Deleted old software? Destroyed an entire universe?"

-- Jet Bradley, Tron: Ghost in the Machine on why being a User isn't necessarily a good thing.
 
Pilgrim1099
User

Posts: 606
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Friday, September, 14, 2012 9:38 AM
J Wrote:Oh, hell. Let's just throw out the BIGGEST Star Wars shoutout:

Former Big Hero? Check
Fallen to the Dark Side and spent more time as a bad guy than he did on light side? Uh, check.
Black suit? Check
MASSIVE damage under that suit? Check.
Faceless helmet? Check.
Strange noise coming from the helmet? Check
Dragon/Enforcer for the jerk in charge? Check
Essentially a slave, despite the apparently privileged position? CHECK!
Betrays the "Emperor" in the end out of love? Check.
Animated prequel series centers on his padawan? Check.

(Anyone want to do some Fan Art along this line?)

And yeah. I know Disney was trying to play Flynn as one of the good guys, but the evidence just points to a charismatic jerk who treated the Programs like toys, threw them under the bus when things got bad, abdicated to his psychotic double...And his analog-world friends were treated no better as he steals Walter and Lora's laser and Alan's security software (Uh, hey, wasn't the fact your intellectual property got ripped off what started this in the first place, el duderino?), does not bother telling even his own wife what he's doing, doesn't leave behind any contingency plans in case of his death/disappearance, and leaves this wide swath of destruction through his friends' lives as a result.

I'd REALLY like to think better of the guy, but there's something missing on the numbers here.

re: fan art. lol. It'd be hilarious if done in that manner.

re: Something missing on the numbers. Writers' oversight, maybe? Hollywood is'nt the only one guilty of writers' oversight. Marvel Comics, as another example, displays some of that. There were many times I wanted to go out there and choke the creative teams and editor(s) for not thinking certain things out, taking the 'cop out' approach instead. I think the problem is that they usually insult the intelligence of the characters themselves.

Another good example is Ridley Scott's Prometheus. As much as I love and respect Ridley for his masterful work on ALIEN and Blade Runner, next to Gladiator/Kingdom of Heaven (those two I own on DVD), he did make some oversights and mistakes. I and along with other Prometheus fans were hoping he would hit the mark with the help of the screenwriters Spaights and Damon ("LOST") Lindelof.

At first, I enjoyed the viewing at the premiere release on the day it came out at a theater that I was able to use closed captioning. It was such a pleasure to watch it while following the dialogue clearly as possible, being able to understand what was going on. I appreciated that and was fortunate it worked well.

(The device failed on me when I tried watching Dark Knight Rises. It did'nt matter because all I cared about was Bane beating the holy hell out of Bruce Wayne and breaking his back. Sorry for the spoilers but that's what he was most famous for in the comics)

Anyway, back to Prometheus. After the film came out, I had a niggling feeling that there was something 'off' in the film while thinking long about it. Suddenly, a blog that made waves coming from the excellent Gavin Rothery wrote his views on Prometheus. Mr. Rothery is one of the bigwigs responsible for producing and creating FX on, in my opinion, one of the greatest science fiction films I've seen in decades called MOON.

In this blog, he literally DESTROYS on what logic and science Prometheus tried to 'sell' on us, including the plot concept. If you have not seen Prometheus, please don't click on the link until you've seen it.

Here is Mr. Rothery's blog:
http://www.gavinrothery.com/my-blog/2012/6/11/so-what-was-wrong-with-prometheus.html
Gavin's work on "MOON" is not a joke and has done such a good job on paying tribute to the 70s 'hard' science fiction environment. If you have never seen it, please you owe it to yourselves to watch it. It's brilliant.

Prometheus was a good try, but I felt some of the problems it had lies on the screenwriter(s), as many people on the AvP site pointed fingers on. I don't think Ridley is completely at fault because he was just getting 'warmed up', returning to the sci-fi realm since 1982. Some rustiness was expected, so I'm aware of a sequel being talked about.

And this comes back to Legacy where we see some of that templated feel of Star Wars. It was definitely Star Wars because right at the end of an interview, the Legacy writers mention the influence. You can see it here at:

http://blog.moviefone.com/2010/12/21/tron-legacy-screenwriters-interview/




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emdeesee
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Posts: 216
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Friday, September, 14, 2012 12:25 PM

What do you call a program who brings a disc to a light cycle battle? Derezzed.
 
BanditTron
User

Posts: 402
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Friday, September, 14, 2012 5:29 PM
haha, I had seen that image of Vader before....Now its PERFECT!

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J
User

Posts: 247
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Friday, September, 14, 2012 5:47 PM
"Analog world"...! Nice. The programs thank you for not relegating their universe to second class status.

Well, with the universe setup, what the hell makes the digital world any less real? They complain about their jobs, fear for their lives, have loved ones, and a society with its own taboos, rituals, and order. An anthropologist could get positively giddy over the prospect.

And aren't the Programs (I use capitals because...well, see Greg Maguire's Wicked for "animals" versus "Animals") miracles as well? Every one of them a sentient being worth respect? Even the simplest piece of banking software blows the Turing Test to atomic particles. They are also life from nothing. Given that, the term "Basics" is vaguely insulting, and calling the human world "the real world" is REALLY insulting. (Clu even calls Flynn out on that in Betrayal, one of the few times I agreed with the jerk)

This adds to another disturbing note on Flynn: after all he saw, after Ram dying in his arms, befriending Tron and Yori, seeing Dumont, sacrificing himself to aid the battle against the MCP (he didn't know it would spit him back in analog), creating the Grid, putting a part of his spirit into Clu...Did he really think the Programs were lesser than the Isos? That the Programs' potential was a dead end and that the shiny new toys that emerged from the Sea were more worthy of his attention? Again, would really, REALLY like to think better of the guy, but he made NO mention to Sam about Program life after the little exposition dump with the action figures. Was he just embittered by all the betrayal and became (perhaps rightly) soured on it?

One of the big selling points for the first movie was that the Programs didn't conform to most of the Artificial Life tropes. They seem fully sentient by anyone's definition, have emotions and opinions, they're implied to have souls (Gibbs's rant), they do not wish to be human, etc. There's also the not-so-subtle nod in the final scene where the Los Angeles cityscape slowly fades in the sunset to a city of neon and light explicitly not so different from the digital world. Of course, Legacy reverses the message; Sam finds no allies or friends among the Programs, the world inside the machine has had all the joy and beauty brutalized out of it, and he escapes with what seems to be held up as the only thing worth saving. The last scenes are about him turning off the computer, accepting "real world" responsibility, and riding off with Quorra into a sunrise - pretty much giving a middle finger to the first movie's "not so different."buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

It's an entire universe in there, one we created, but it's beyond us now. Really. It's outgrown us. You know, every time you shut off your computer...do you know what you're doing? Have you ever reformatted a hard drive? Deleted old software? Destroyed an entire universe?"

-- Jet Bradley, Tron: Ghost in the Machine on why being a User isn't necessarily a good thing.
 
emdeesee
User

Posts: 216
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Friday, September, 14, 2012 5:53 PM
J, we are totally on the same page.buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

What do you call a program who brings a disc to a light cycle battle? Derezzed.
 
emdeesee
User

Posts: 216
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Friday, September, 14, 2012 6:18 PM
BanditTron Wrote:haha, I had seen that image of Vader before....Now its PERFECT!

I think you mean, "The circle is now complete..."
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What do you call a program who brings a disc to a light cycle battle? Derezzed.
 
Kat
User

Posts: 2,342
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Saturday, September, 15, 2012 11:34 AM
J Wrote:One of the big selling points for the first movie was that the Programs didn't conform to most of the Artificial Life tropes. They seem fully sentient by anyone's definition, have emotions and opinions, they're implied to have souls (Gibbs's rant), they do not wish to be human, etc. There's also the not-so-subtle nod in the final scene where the Los Angeles cityscape slowly fades in the sunset to a city of neon and light explicitly not so different from the digital world. Of course, Legacy reverses the message; Sam finds no allies or friends among the Programs, the world inside the machine has had all the joy and beauty brutalized out of it, and he escapes with what seems to be held up as the only thing worth saving. The last scenes are about him turning off the computer, accepting "real world" responsibility, and riding off with Quorra into a sunrise - pretty much giving a middle finger to the first movie's "not so different."

Y'know, I think I said something about that once here (wish I knew what to search to find it; we need that feature where you can get a list of someone's posts from their profile)-- I can't remember exactly what the topic was. It was probably something like "will Sam go back to the Grid" maybe. And I was saying that they really don't show anything FOR him there-- they don't show much to paint it as an appealing place. You even sort of get the impression by the end that Sam's got a bit of a disgusted "let's get the hell out of here" attitude. At first, on the Reco, there's a bit of wonder coming from him. By the end, the only person from there who's been nice to him/helped him/not betrayed him is Q. Not everyone was two-faced, but those he met who weren't simply weren't friendly-- they were worried about saving their own skins and weren't in any mood to socialize. Actually, that's quite a good contrast to Ram*, eh?

*Though I always thought Ram a bit flip as well, just like I felt about Crom-- dudes, this are games TO THE DEATH. the guy you're talking to is probably about to die, or you might soon. I have a tendency to make dark jokes about deadly-serious things, as do many, but I know few people who are downright lighthearted about them.buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
J
User

Posts: 247
RE: Taking yourself out of the equation-- yea or nay?

on Saturday, September, 15, 2012 6:19 PM
Kat Wrote:

Y'know, I think I said something about that once here (wish I knew what to search to find it; we need that feature where you can get a list of someone's posts from their profile)-- I can't remember exactly what the topic was. It was probably something like "will Sam go back to the Grid" maybe. And I was saying that they really don't show anything FOR him there-- they don't show much to paint it as an appealing place. You even sort of get the impression by the end that Sam's got a bit of a disgusted "let's get the hell out of here" attitude.

Contrast with first film where we were given reason to sympathize with the Programs and find wonder in their world among the danger. We see the Programs on their own. Ram's an idealist; his belief in Users doesn't seem as hard-coded as Tron's is, but his treatment of Crom is a character establishing moment and infodump. Ram seems to want to treat everyone like they have a chance of surviving, even when it's clear that he doesn't think Crom's got much of a chance. So, we have a friendly, optimistic, idealistic guy in circumstances that really ought to have killed it. His good nature is an act of defiance in and of itself. And the gut punch with his death? Even as he's de-rezzing, and realizes Flynn's a User, the last thing he begs is not for himself, but "help Tron."

We later see Clu 1.0; Egad, Funny Aneurysm Moment! But we get that he fears for his life, he's got just enough of his User in him for the smartass traits and foolhardy bravery to carry over, that Master Control is a dick, and that these artificial life forms feel pain and fear (if the earlier scene with Crom and Ram wasn't explicit enough) .

Tron in the first film? Biggest badass in cyberspace, sure, but a VERY sweet guy otherwise. The bits with him and Ram points to our big badass losing hope until Flynn exploits a programming glitch to get them out. He's visibly upset when the thinks Flynn and Ram were killed. And with an urgent call from Alan on the line, what does he do? Goes to find and free his wife/bundled software (and go back to her place for a little "welcome home").

And the whole I/O Tower? Where to even start? Dumont's role as a de facto priest, the ritualistic nature of contacting a User, the moment of hope on Yori and Dumont when it begins, the awe and joy on Tron's face when he finally makes contact with Alan.

Given this, we can totally see why Flynn would not only shift his goals from "sticking it to Dillinger" to "I'm willing to sacrifice myself for this world if I have to." (after all, Flynn was not privy to the MCP trying to pull an Ozymandias). We can see why he wanted to go back and build a Utopia for the Programs.

Okay, discredited sequel, but another reason I really like Tron 2.0 is the inversion of the themes from the movies. Instead of rogue AIs who want to take over the User world, it's bad Users threatening the Program world. And as Alan's virtual son was a Program that fought for the Users? Well, Alan's biological son turned out to be a User fighting for the Programs!

Jet's goal is to find his dad and go home. Ma3a, though, uploaded him to fight off the viral attack to save her and, by extension, the other Programs. The issue it traced back to a User corrupted by not just a digitization gone wrong, but his own greed. Later, the whole DataWraith problem hits, and the Programs are being bullied by them as F-Con is trying to get them to betray the Users' private information for their financial and political gain. The ICP units are not evil, merely mistaken and led by a Kernel who shoots first and isn't fond of questions. Along the way, he's aided by Programs - Ma3a, Byte, Mercury, I-No. Even the civilian Programs are usually friendly, and often helpful. It's also telling that destroying a Program that isn't actively shooting at you is instant Game Over. It's a first person shooter and it manages to be more optimistic and kinder in tone than Legacy.

Back to Legacy and canon - Sam's experience was just running from one hostile situation to the next. No Program will help him. they all seems to view him as a target to be killed or pawn to exploit. Quorra and his dad, the only ones who weren't trying to get him killed, were fugitives. There were no friendly Programs - no one like Ram, Yori, I-No, or Byte willing to help him.

This world cost him his dad. His dad's absence caused massive fallout on everyone else - Alan, Lora, Roy, his grandparents, Encom. He heard stories of a digital wonderland, and walks into a totalitarian nightmare full of mind rape, brutality, genocide, and betrayal. Even its greatest hero was twisted into what seems to be a barely sentient killing machine. It gave Sam years of pain before he even stepped into that basement.

It's endangered the human world twice. Master Control had a pair of nuclear arsenals in his grasp. Clu was (maybe talking out his rear) amassing an army. Both were stopped by a lot of sacrifice and a dose of blind luck.

He'd escaped with the last shard of a miracle. There's nothing to go back for, save revisiting any notes his dad left behind. But those are pretty incidental compared to the danger it would take to get them.

It ruined his life, and that of a lot of other people he cares about.
It threatened his life.
It enacted genocide against something it didn't understand.
It's openly hostile to humans.
It cost him his father - twice.
It's threatened the human world twice over.
It betrayed the one human who had gone inside of it with good intentions.

Given this, why isn't the proverbial pair of nukes and destroying the Program world and declaring The World Will Never be Ready regarding the laser tech the correct, sane response? (Also asking for fanfic purposes; one of the folks in the cast will seriously propose this and take steps to make it happen)
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It's an entire universe in there, one we created, but it's beyond us now. Really. It's outgrown us. You know, every time you shut off your computer...do you know what you're doing? Have you ever reformatted a hard drive? Deleted old software? Destroyed an entire universe?"

-- Jet Bradley, Tron: Ghost in the Machine on why being a User isn't necessarily a good thing.
 
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