rimwall Wrote: ShadowSpark Wrote:Ah, yes, but the question is, just how do you define a flaw? That's the question I'd like to ask Clu. Me: So, you're supposed to create the perfect system? Clu: Yes. Me: And how would you define a 'perfect system'? Clu: A system without flaws or imperfections. Me: Okay, but how do you define a flaw? How do you know that something is an imperfection? Clu:..... since clu is flynn's creation with some mental characteristics inherited from flynn - then clu's sense of imperfection should roughly coincide with flynn's sense of imperfection. lets look at it this way- what would have happened if flynn saw the iso's appearance from the real-world looking at his computer screen. if programs are executables- then isos would probably look like random executing code popping up unexpectedly. there's a very good chance flynn would have assesed them as a glitch and promptly deleted the isos. what's also interesting is how clu was able to justify/rationalize de-rezzing programs let's go back to the early days of flynn's programming what happens when flynn makes a program then tests it then finds out later on that making a new program from scratch is better than trying to fix the old one. does flynn delete the old program? did the system bestow upon clu the mental characteristic and ability to rationalize deleting unusable programs, so that clu can perform his duties in creating a perfect system? this is what i mean by the programmer having no control over what mental characteristics the system chooses to copy from programmer and give to program. (kindly refer to the first page of this thread for more info on mental characteristics inherited by programs) it's obvious that, during the early days of the grid, flynn gave little importance to the implications of mental similarities between programmer and program he should have taken the time to delve into clu's character. the red flag for flynn should have been during the start when clu was beginning to disagree with flynns assesment of the isos. since disagreement means clu is already rationalizing differently than flynn. but of course that's hindsight.

additional:

lets try a hypothetical scenario - where flynn is inside the grid
and the isos appeared - but instead of a human body they had
a grid bug body.

if the system gave the isos a grid bug body then flynn would have
deleted them with the justification that they are garden variety
grid bugs. the key word being justification.

the mental capacity and ability to justify deletion of a known
danger to the grid exists in flynn.

so we could observe that the same mental capacity was bestowed by
the system to clu.

the tradegy is clu classifying the isos as dangerous.

tron reporting to flynn that isos are causing grid glitches
from tron betrayal comics


flynn explaining to clu the nature of the damage (the isos are tearing the gird apart)


clu talking to tron and coming to the conclusion that its a matter of
survival

there's something strange going on with the system
when i said in previous post:

"i cant imagine flynn intentionally giving clu
a coup mentality. "

im going to assume the system is displaying intelligence
of some sort (because the system seems to display
autonomy/independence in what mental characteristics
to copy from programmer and then assign to programs)

the system also seems to display intelligence in
what particular physical attributes are given to programs
(tron being more physically capable than other
programs)

still trying to find more instances of system
intelligence so more for later.
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ShadowDragon1 Wrote:LOL. Wow.. just, wow. The rules of The Grid are; It's not real. The End.

That may be enough to satisfy you, but other people expect more from their fictional universes, especially when it comes to science fiction.

I don't think anyone here is expecting scientific accuracy from Tron: Legacy. I do think people want the setting to adhere to some kind of internal logic that's plausible, and more importantly, consistent. The last one in particular is a headbanger, since it seems like the Legacy screenwriters were working from different assumptions about how the Tron universe works than the original writers (and the creators of the game Tron 2.0, which was consistent with the unwritten "rules" of the Troniverse up to that point) were. So you've really got two different, and in some cases conflicting. sets of rules about how things work. I imagine it's not a big problem for people who are just discovering the franchise with Legacy, but for fans who grew up on the original, some mental contortions are required to reconcile the two.

I may not necessarily agree with rimwall's interpretation of how things work in the Tron universe, but I can't blame him for trying to tackle the subject.

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Poster Shadowdragon seems bent on reiterating a "turn your brain off" policy when it comes to anything tagged as "fictional". Because something is made up, the logic seems to go, that means it is utterly random and senseless, and we shouldn't spend any time thinking further into it.

This seems to be ignorant of the principles of writing and storytelling, in fact; internal consistency and logic make better stories, not worse ones. Even genuine fairy tales can have quite a lot of logic, and their own rules that their world must abide by. We take a lot of it for granted because those forms of mythology have been with us so long, that the rules are invisible, but they are there.

But, trying to get back on topic:

I feel that the writers of Legacy and all its surrounding and supporting materials, are intentionally performing a large number of soft retcons on Tron in order to make the Tron universe - in their view - more palatable to contemporary audiences. And I think there's a fair point to be had there. This is not 1982. Computers are now very familiar to everyone, and people know that there aren't little people inside a computer who are responsible for making stuff work. When Tron was written, computers were an arcane, mystical realm of knowledge that the average person didn't comprehend whatsoever. Tron was concieved as a highly metaphorical story so that it would be digestible to the presumed average movie goer.

The thing about Legacy and the "rules of the Grid" is that thanks to the input of a lot of writers - not just the screenwriters - who helped flesh out Tron's universe and partially reconstruct it, there appears to be quite a lot of thought put into things. (Unfortunately for chaps like ShadowDragon, the writers themselves have put a lot more thought into things than "LOL IS MADE UP DON'T HAVE TO MAKE SENSE".)

I've read both the graphic novel and just about all the scraps of plot and background information that's been released out there. A picture does form, that is internally consistent, and seems to be what the writers are intending with Legacy. Essentially, based on what I have seen, I have to come to the conclusion that Legacy's retcon of Tron is intended to establish the "pocket dimension" theory of how the tronverse works. That computers, in the real world, do not literally have little Tron people inside them, even as a magical metaphorical fairy tale. Rather, electromagnetic phenomenon that has structure and order, such as electrical devices, computers, and yes, the human brain, are imprinting structure and order on a level of reality we can't ordinarily perceive. Call it subspace, quantum foam, or whatever. This is where the reality of "tron" takes place.

Much of Legacy's plot is in fact predicated on, and requires this model, to make any sense at all. The Grid is a beachhead in the "electronic world", designed by Flynn, but that world existed before Flynn dropped the Grid in place. That world is not entirely within Flynn's control, as he learns when his structure results in evolution taking place outside the parameters of his intentionally constructed, programmed city. This is how the ISOs could spring into existence. One might imagine that the Sea of Simulation is the real "stuff" of the electronic world - raw energy, chaos, potential, unformed. Flynn's experiments with building a private system to play in, must have involved him determining the effects of writing a program in the real world, running it, then teleporting himself - or his consciousness structure really - into the electronic world and seeing how the rules of that place built upon his seemingly simple program.

If the electronic world is its own dimension, one highly interactive with electromagnetic impulses, then the rest of the puzzle might be the human brain itself. That programs reflect their creators, that more complex systems built upon the basic computer structure exist, might easily be explained by the mind of the programmer/user imprinting structure that is beyond the grasp of the conscious mind, into the electronic world.

Another issue with Flynn's "Grid" is that the only program who appears to have been created using the original Tron method is Clu. The Grid is otherwise full of Basics (pure programs, not ISOs or naturally evolved entities) who are not the result of single user interaction - remember, the Grid was Flynn's personal playground. Nobody else worked on it, to result in a program reflection of themselves being born in the Grid. This aspect could be an expansion of the original film direction - in Tron, there were "generic" programs such as security guards who existed in multiple copies to do a lot of grunt work. One might argue it's unlikely all those beings were 1:1 copies of a specific User somewhere - there simply wouldn't be enough programmers to go around and create all those unique Tron inhabitants! Therefore, we would assume it's possible to write programs that aren't "personal", and this is what Flynn did to populate the Grid with all the programs necessary to run his experiments.

Now, an interesting point about the "weather" in the Grid. A lot of people have asked "why is there steam all over in the city?" aside from the fact that Flynn *did* want more realistic physics in order to test hypothetical technologies in the Grid that could be applied to the real world to some degree, there actually seems to be a strongly implied explanation that creates a pretty interesting scenario.

If one notices, the clouds in the Grid are alive with energy; always crackling with ball lightning. It's specifically noted in the graphic novel that there are energy aqueducts that exist to funnel power around. Other sources, such as some of the games, reveal there are energy processing and rectification stations that change raw energy into safely modulated power. Along with a few other details, I think it's a safe bet that the "rain" in the Grid is nothing more (and less) than the metaphor of "energy = water" from the original film. The Sea of Simulation, being raw potential energy, evaporates to some degree, and this free energy collects in the clouds over the landscape. Much like water, it condenses eventually and rains down. The aqueducts collect this energy and funnel to processing stations so it doesn't go to waste. The giant plums of steam, IIRC, are meant to be coming from the energy rectifiers all around the city - the steam is excess energy evaporating off again.

Another interesting point is that Sam, when entering Disc Wars, recognizes the first warrior program he faces - the guy Sam fights (and punks to death) is in fact the same "character" that one of the action figures is based on in the in-universe "Tron" merchandising. This is an intentional plot point, but it raises an interesting question: clearly, the action figure was created because Flynn knew what an inhabitant of the Grid looked like, and the guy was probably one of the "generic" programs Flynn deemed to create. However, between 1989, and 2010, a loooong time passed in the Grid. It's convenient that the particular program seemingly survived being derezzed for so long just for Sam to be able to meet him, and make his quip.

While we're having fun with this, I tend to think it works into another idea I've had about the way stuff actually works in the Grid: the notion that there is a difference between "derezzing" a program and actually erasing one from the system's reality, and that this is the reason Clu didn't depopulate the Grid with 1000 years of Grid Wars games in which deresolution was enabled. Programs are not truly destroyed when they are derezzed; rather, that one instance of themselves is detached from the system. The various Basics who inhabit the Grid are perpetual, and if one instance is destroyed, another is rezzed up to take his place - he is reloaded. Death is still "real" in that a derezzed program suffers a destruction of his unique personality; the reloaded version of him, coming back again to fill his role, will once again be the default with no memories or experiences. (FYI, this also happens to fit in with other versions of the Tronverse, such as in the Tron 2.0 scenario where "generic" programs like guards can be infinitely rezzed up from emitters that launch new processes when an old one is destroyed.)

Thus, when Sam meets the unnamed warrior program, there's no telling how many times the poor fellow has died previously; Sam is just seeing the latest instance of himself rezzed up for the game grid. This would also fit in with the poor Basic who killed himself rather than being turned into a warrior for the games - he screamed "erase me", as in, actually erase him - don't just put him into the games so he can get the bits blasted out of him, knowing that another version of himself will be forced to live through it over and over. Might also help explain Clu's resource management problems and his need to rectify programs for his army. Clu is stuck with a perpetual, fixed number of programs, and the pre-existent Black Guard units are not numerous enough for his plans. Thus, the rectification, to change programs into Black Guard and provide Clu with more total soldiers on call at any one time. (Between them being derezzed and respawned. An immortal army still isn't that useful if their total numbers at any one moment are quite limited.)

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how can we explain the implied networked arcade
games in tron 1


many many thanks to Argent and his thread
http://www.tron-sector.com/forums/default.aspx?a=top&id=412776&pg=3
and giving permission for me to cross-post

many thanks to LWSrocks for pointing out the discrepancy
of networked arcade games. and inspiring this research.

many thanks to IsoLine for originating the idea of a
real-world explanation that we can offer as a possible
explanation for networked arcade games.


the implied network connection between an arcade machine
and sark was the hard part to explain - because later on we see
sark reporting to the MCP about the game - where the MCP
comments on sark's brutality.

i dont remember circa 1980 arcade games being networked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcade_game
fortunately upon further research we can now offer
another possible explanation. (non-canon of course)

http://www.thehightechstore.com/electricinternet.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication
of particular interest is the
Internet access (broadband over powerlines) section

and the patent for the technology was in 1971
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=7567154

then we can attribute the intelligence of,
how to implement the network of encom arcade games,
to the MCP:

dillinger: now wait a minute i wrote you.
MCP: i've gotten 2,415 times smarter since then.

TRON.dll Wrote:An in-canon explanation: The original TRON film takes place in an alternate version of 1982 where networking exists as it does today. As such, Sark was able to travel to the lightcycles arcade game from the Encom mainframe and be the computer opponent. What backs up this explanation of advanced networking existing in TRON's version of 1982? 1) The MCP was able to (through what I would assume was networking) steal information for its own personal needs from other corporations, and planned to use the same methods to do the same to places like The Pentagon and whatnot. 2) TRON was written as a security program that was to monitor incoming and outgoing connections to and from the Encom system, respectfully. Any data coming into the Encom system, or being sent from the Encom system, via networking, would be checked by TRON for any potential threats. If TRON detected a threat, it would erase the file in question.

certainly a plausible explanation.

in terms of the laser digitization process not existing
in our universe. it would be acceptable to suggest
it exists in another universe.

so yes, points 1 and 2 are certainly valid




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castors ability to forge disks is worth exploring
as a possible solution to the "disks present in
revolutionary meetings" conundrum

1.can castor manipulate the memories stored in the disks?
2.can castor disable the record function of the disks?
3.can castor modify disks so the record function is under
direct program mental control?
(when and when not to record or record only past memories that
programs specifically want recorded)
4.is gem castor's supplier of blank disks? or does she just
pick up the discarded disks of de-rezzed programs.
5.do rebel programs surrender their old disks to castor
or just bring them in for modification? (remember prior
to modification theses disks contain all of a rebel's memories)

things we have to reconcile to formulate an acceptable
theory:

the bartik castor revolutionary meeting where everyone
including bartik's companions are carrying recording disks.
we need to reconcile that even if anyone in that meeting
is captured - disk reading will not reveal them or anybody
to be rebels.

modified disks should support programs being able to control
what memories gets recorded on the disks an edit mode
of some sort(maybe)


side note:
1.if castor is the only entity capable of modifying disks -
or disk contents then he has to be playing some sort of
double game, because if he was totally devoted to clu
then rebel factions would be practically non-existent.
(probably why clu destroyed him)

2.being a "disk modifier" easily reconciles castor having
contact with all rebel factions.
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rimwall Wrote:the disks apparent ability to reach memories that happened prior to its first installation. (sams real-world memories when viewed by clu) i'm not sure whether this disk ability to reach old memories happens only during first install or whether the disk keeps doing this periodically. side note: another explanation of how the disk was able to reach memories the occured prior to disk installation: maybe because during the disk games sam was currently thinking about the memories that got him into the grid. this could (maybe) account for the memory of "allan's talk about the pager" being in the disk sam still thinking about his real-world memories during disk games: sam: "i have a strange version of you on my shelf" sam : "you definitely didn't do that!"

Maybe the disc just goes back and pulls everything from his mind--you know, just downloads everything on his hard drive, essentially. There is that part where they put the disc on his back and activate it and you see his eyes sort of flash and he almost winces a bit like it did something to him. It could be that the whole thing is supposed to show how much like computers we really are.

(Of course, the question is...does the disc pull accurate memories, as if everything we've ever done is stored in our brains, or actual memories? Because remember that a person's memory isn't always accurate, nor do we actively remember everything that has ever happened to us [one could perhaps try to argue that our brains do actually store everything, though, we just don't tap into it, but who knows], so if the latter is the case, one can't rely 100% on what's on a disc when trying to figure out what happened to a user prior to the disc installation...)

rimwall Wrote:sam still thinking about his real-world memories during disk games: sam: "i have a strange version of you on my shelf" sam : "you definitely didn't do that!"

Sam: I have a three-inch version of you on my shelf.