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rimwall
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Posts: 507
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Wednesday, January, 26, 2011 5:28 AM
ShadowDragon1 Wrote:The Grid rules:

1st RULE: You do not talk about The Grid to people in the real world.

2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about Flynn.. if you want to live.

3rd RULE: If someone says "I believe in the Users" or goes "not the games!", or looses their Identity Disk during the games, your freedom on The Grid is over and will be subject to immediate de-resolution.

4th RULE: Only two Programa in the final Disc Wars match.

5th RULE: One disc at a time. (Only Rinzler is exempted from this rule)

6th RULE: No real world shirts, no real world shoes. (applies to any Users tha may appear on The Grid)

7th RULE: The games will go on as long as they have to.

8th RULE: If it is a User's or rogue Program's first night in The Grid, he or she HAS to fight in the games if scanned and deemed not suitable for rectification.


Much obliged, if you would like to add more, kindly share

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rimwall
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Posts: 507
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Wednesday, January, 26, 2011 5:29 AM
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ShadowDragon1
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Posts: 2,056
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Wednesday, January, 26, 2011 5:33 AM
You've never seen "Fight Club" ? lol

Rule # 9 If you see the Buddha on the road, kill the Buddha.
Rule # 10: There is no Grid

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"The film is about finding human connection in an increasingly digital world." - Joseph Kosinski

 
rimwall
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Posts: 507
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Wednesday, January, 26, 2011 6:12 AM
LWSrocks Wrote:Rule #1 about Fight Club, nobody speaks of Fight Club.

i've seen bits of it on hbo. admittedly not the whole movie.
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terrychoichelsea
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Posts: 133
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Wednesday, January, 26, 2011 6:13 AM
ShadowDragon1 Wrote:The Grid rules:

1st RULE: You do not talk about The Grid to people in the real world.

2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about Flynn.

3rd RULE: If someone says "I believe in the Users" or goes "not the games!", or looses their Identity Disk during the games, your freedom on The Grid is over.

4th RULE: Only two guys in the final Disc Wars match.

5th RULE: One disc at a time. (Only Rinzler is exempted from this rule)

6th RULE: No real world shirts, no real world shoes.

7th RULE: The games will go on as long as they have to.

8th RULE: If it a User or rogue Program's first night in The Grid, he or she HAS to fight in the games if scanned and deemed not suitable for rectification.
9th RULE: If any program violate any rule in the disc wars, it will automatically sent to the final role against Rinzler.


 
rimwall
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Posts: 507
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Wednesday, January, 26, 2011 6:45 AM
terrychoichelsea Wrote:
ShadowDragon1 Wrote:The Grid rules:

1st RULE: You do not talk about The Grid to people in the real world.

2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about Flynn.

3rd RULE: If someone says "I believe in the Users" or goes "not the games!", or looses their Identity Disk during the games, your freedom on The Grid is over.

4th RULE: Only two guys in the final Disc Wars match.

5th RULE: One disc at a time. (Only Rinzler is exempted from this rule)

6th RULE: No real world shirts, no real world shoes.

7th RULE: The games will go on as long as they have to.

8th RULE: If it a User or rogue Program's first night in The Grid, he or she HAS to fight in the games if scanned and deemed not suitable for rectification.
9th RULE: If any program violate any rule in the disc wars, it will automatically sent to the final role against Rinzler.


terrychoichelsea and ShadowDragon1 thanks

keep it coming guys. if the writers ever see the discussion groups
rules - they will have a better idea of the expectations of viewers.
and the viewers' interpretation of the grid
and tron 3 will be better than ever.

by the way ShadowDragon1, i like the format of your rules better.
its easier to add new rules to it.

also if you guys or any member of the group can post a different
thread for controversial rules in a format where the discussion group
can like vote and deliberate on controversial rules then it
would be most ideal.

a common vision ... we need it.

feel free to add more Grid rules and bounce ideas
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tecknoshaman
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Posts: 39
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Wednesday, January, 26, 2011 8:01 AM
All i have to say is wait for the animated series, there might be more. Also in the evolution game several locations within the grid had floors or platforms rezzing in and out of existence sort of speak. looks like light beams can cause objects to float or hover several feet in the air.


 
rimwall
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Posts: 507
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Wednesday, January, 26, 2011 9:46 PM
based on what we witnessed in the scene where
flynn repairs quorra's arm:

the staff weapon appears to inject code at
the digital dna level. (if flynn is taking out
something then something foreign was injected)

based on the fight in the bar and the staff weapon's
injected code - only one hit on any part of the body
of a program appears to de-rezz the program. which
implies the (for want of a better word) corruption code
spreads througout the program. (which makes sense
because if the code is in the dna level then its
everywhere inside the program)

iso's appear to be more more resilient to the effect
of the spreading code.

conjecture is- do all manner of weapons in the grid
act this way? do they all inject code?

the grid also seem to have guns like castors staff
make me wonder why clu's troops favor the staff

btw the staff weapons in tron 1 can also be used a
sort of a cattle prod emitting electrical arcs and
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rimwall
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Posts: 507
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Thursday, January, 27, 2011 9:17 AM
it appears that having lightning occur outside
the grid has a scientific basis. its not just eye candy.

if the system can create an unpredictable new life form
the implication is that flynn's system is a chaotic system
(just like nature or weather) that is the nature of
chaos - it is unpredictable.

given the chaotic/unpredictable nature of flynn's
system it seems that lightning has a role in the
creation of life

http://astrobiology.arc.nasa.gov/news/expandnews.cfm?id=991
and
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1102-lightning-provides-vital-spark-for-evolution.html

that is why the area around the grid looks primordial

extra note
if we think that clu was able to poison the sea of
simulation in his effort to stop life from evolving-
well... clu got it wrong again. "life finds a way"

life can even adapt to poison

http://windowviewblog.blogspot.com/2010/12/arsenic-based-life-form.html

http://www.news.com.au/features/deepest-volcanic-vent-recorded-could-hold-clues-to-life-on-earth/story-e6frflor-1225853023182

excerpt
------
The environment may appear brutal: the intense heat and pressure combines with toxic metals to form a highly acidic undersea cocktail. But vents host lush colonies of exotic animals such as hairy worms, blind shrimp and giant white crabs.
-----

quorra might be important but she pales in
comparison to the system that spawned her.

i wonder if sam understands the significance of the system

more on the implications of a chaotic system later.


I.T. support: yes sir - you click start to turn off your p.c.

 
rimwall
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Posts: 507
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Thursday, January, 27, 2011 10:38 AM
rimwall Wrote:it appears that having lightning occur outside
the grid has a scientific basis. its not just eye candy.

if the system can create an unpredictable new life form
the implication is that flynn's system is a chaotic system
(just like nature or weather) that is the nature of
chaos - it is unpredictable.

given the chaotic/unpredictable nature of flynn's
system it seems that lightning has a role in the
creation of life

http://astrobiology.arc.nasa.gov/news/expandnews.cfm?id=991
and
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1102-lightning-provides-vital-spark-for-evolution.html

that is why the area around the grid looks primordial

extra note
if we think that clu was able to poison the sea of
simulation in his effort to stop life from evolving-
well... clu got it wrong again. "life finds a way"

life can even adapt to poison

http://windowviewblog.blogspot.com/2010/12/arsenic-based-life-form.html

http://www.news.com.au/features/deepest-volcanic-vent-recorded-could-hold-clues-to-life-on-earth/story-e6frflor-1225853023182

excerpt
------
The environment may appear brutal: the intense heat and pressure combines with toxic metals to form a highly acidic undersea cocktail. But vents host lush colonies of exotic animals such as hairy worms, blind shrimp and giant white crabs.
-----

quorra might be important but she pales in
comparison to the system that spawned her.

i wonder if sam understands the significance of the system

more on the implications of a chaotic system later.

i forgot
life is not the only indicator of a chaotic system
weather is also a perfect textbook indicator , rain etc.

it was subtle tho.
most of the reviewers (specially the bad review) missed the
significance of the rain. they just complained.

oh man - they have to bring in a mathematician character in tron 3.
otherwise the film critics will still miss the fact that the
grid has already made the transition to a chaotic system.

(and bring back the rain and have the mathematician comment on it.)

here is a perfect example of "the critics mind only has room for Criticism"
http://twitchfilm.com/reviews/2010/12/tron-legacy-review.php
excerpt
------------
It's the world that director Joseph Kosinski that bugged me the most. Why is there rain in The Grid?
-----------

http://starjerk.com/2010/12/17/tron-legacy-review/
---------
One of the programs, Gem (Beau Garrett), is seen carrying a parasol even though there’s no sunlight and no rain in the grid. It’s there because it makes her look cool and that, in a neon-laced nutshell, is the rhyme and reason behind the majority of TRON: Legacy : “Because it looks cool.”
---------


for me, a definite kudos to the screenwriters

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rimwall
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Posts: 507
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Thursday, January, 27, 2011 11:15 AM
great respects to the writers and director too of course

it must have taken great self-control

must have been champing at the bit to tell the reviewers

it begs the question tho : is there a reason for not telling?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory
excerpt
-------
Chaotic behavior can be observed in many natural systems, such as the weather....

Chaos theory has been mentioned in numerous movies and works of literature. Examples include the book Jurassic Park, the film The Butterfly Effect, the sitcom The Big Bang Theory, Tom Stoppard's play Arcadia and the video game Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory. The influence of chaos theory in shaping the popular understanding of the world
-------


it begs the question tho : is there a reason for not telling?
why am i repeating this? see below:

from
http://blog.moviefone.com/2010/12/21/tron-legacy-screenwriters-interview/
excerpt
-------------------
Why do the undeveloped "Outland" areas look more organic, instead of maybe more simple and geometric like in the first film?

Horowitz: I think I know what you're getting at. This is something that we've talked about with Joe a lot and he had some great thoughts on an approach to this and he can speak to it even better than we can. But the general idea was like, if you take what a processor from 1982 had, the kind of power that a computer processor had then, and then you take what it has now and you go through the exponential changes in technology in computing power, the representation of reality would reach that kind of level where you would have a system that, inside, you're replicating things that feel more organic. There are weather systems, there are things that are more analogous to what our world is in there, based on the vastly different computer processing power.
---------------------

its like saying only a portion of the truth. but never giving the
whole thing.

i almost get the feeling of pulling teeth.

there's more meaning to this of course but ...

thoughts ?

oh sorry about editing hours later but finding the links really takes time

I.T. support: yes sir - you click start to turn off your p.c.

 
rimwall
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Posts: 507
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Monday, January, 31, 2011 1:20 AM
the laser digitization coupled with flynn's system has many implications-
for brevity im going to call both the laser system.

i think it's already been established that user bodies
in the grid are digital representations and not the
actual human bodies.

if the only thing that is transferred is user consciousness then
consider the implications:

the laser system can extract consciousness

the laser system knows how to map new memories
back to the original brain.
- consider sam's return to the real world-
all the new memories he gained
while in the grid has to be properly mapped to
the right locations in the brain. the laser system
knows where to put new short term memories, where to
put new long term memories etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbic_system

btw there are many types of memory and brain science is
just beginning to map out their locations.

http://www.positscience.com/human-brain/memory/types-of-memory
http://factoidz.com/memory-brain-regions-types-and-changing-neurons/

in short the laser system has such a detailed map
and in depth knowledge of the user brain that
it knows how to add memory
to the brain and where to put those new memories in
the original brain.

thoughts?

more later...
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Kat
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Posts: 2,394
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Monday, January, 31, 2011 6:35 PM
^I'm not sure it's as simple as that, though. If it were just a matter of transferring consciousness, then why would the user's body need to be pulled into the laser at all? Couldn't the laser just take their "mind" and leave the body, and transfer the mind into the computer (like they do in the Matrix, actually. One's body doesn't actually go into the Matrix, just one's consciousness). The fact that the body also has to go must mean something.

(Or I suppose it may just mean Disney found it too creepy of an idea to leave an empty body slumped over a keyboard as if dead, but let's try not to look at it from a "real-world movie-making practicality inspires plot" viewpoint, 'cause that makes it less fun)

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
rimwall
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Posts: 507
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Monday, January, 31, 2011 9:03 PM
Kat Wrote:^I'm not sure it's as simple as that, though. If it were just a matter of transferring consciousness, then why would the user's body need to be pulled into the laser at all? Couldn't the laser just take their "mind" and leave the body, and transfer the mind into the computer (like they do in the Matrix, actually. One's body doesn't actually go into the Matrix, just one's consciousness). The fact that the body also has to go must mean something.

(Or I suppose it may just mean Disney found it too creepy of an idea to leave an empty body slumped over a keyboard as if dead, but let's try not to look at it from a "real-world movie-making practicality inspires plot" viewpoint, 'cause that makes it less fun)

excellent point kat.

the laser digitization process was originally invented
by (gibbs and lora tron 1) the method was still in
its infancy and they only wanted to know if its possible
to digitize and un-digitize objects hence the experiments.
the inventors did not know how to do it with humans yet.

allan: you two having fun disintegrating things down here?

gibbs: its not disintegrating allan -digitizing. the
laser dismantles the molecular structure of the object
and molecules remain suspended in the laser beam then
when the computer plays out the model like the molecules
fall back into place and walah

allan: (joking) hmm great can it send me to hawaii

lora: yeah. but you gotta purchase your program
30 days in advance.

what the first movie did not show -but the book
expounded on, was that the MCP was also very interested
in the process, and that the MCP with its vast
intelligence managed to work out the entire process
of how to safely digitize a human.

you are entirely correct in thinking that
there is an air of mystery surrounding the process
and the MCP's knowledge of the entire process makes
it both more nefarious and mysterious

it is entirely possible finesse the implications of
the process more -or even attempt a new interpretation
as long as our new interpretations can also reconcile some
scenes in the movie

things we need to take into account to finesse our interpretations
or attempt new interpretations:

1. we need to reconcile sam un-digitizing in the real
world in his original clothes.

2. flynn was digitized in tron 1 and appeared already
garbed in warrior clothes.

3. flynn's body in tron 1 can absorb massive amounts
of digital energy (scene where flynn diverts energy junction
for solar sailer)

4. bleeding of sam in disk wars.

5. user bodies being more resilient to damage than
ordinary programs (sam in light cycle battle)

6. digital food -all that food has to go somewhere

well... maybe not #6 tho i've been to some discussion
groups that refuse to swallow the whole food thing

thoughts?

speculations:
in quorra's case - if she is now a triple-helix-dna-person that
can bleed - what happens when she returns to the grid?
will the system put her in a body that bleeds
or an iso body that derezzes?

btw returning quorra in an iso body implies that
the system still has the capability to make isos.

we can also ask - can the system be coaxed into
putting a user consciousness into an iso body then un-digitize that
iso body into a triple-helix-human body? (on the
assumption that having a triple helix is a good thing)

side note
with your permission - i'd also like to use your
interpretation/visualization of the consciousness
transfer as a jumping point for addition to
my abstraction comment and the need for
writers to ensure a common vision that they can share
with the viewers.

but it's a real-world concern so i'll do it in
a new reply/comment.
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Kat
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RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Monday, January, 31, 2011 10:16 PM
On #6...I think we had a thread a while back where it was speculated that the food was just a new form of energy--akin to the energy drinks, but in food form. Hence we assume it wouldn't need to "go" anywhere?

(Of course, the fact that programs probably don't need bathrooms would make for an interesting mess until poor Quorra figures out exactly what that tickly feeling is, but, um, yeah. That'll ruin any fanfic right there...)

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
rimwall
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Posts: 507
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Tuesday, February, 01, 2011 2:13 AM
Kat Wrote:On #6...I think we had a thread a while back where it was speculated that the food was just a new form of energy--akin to the energy drinks, but in food form. Hence we assume it wouldn't need to "go" anywhere?

thoughts of food naturally lead us to think of
the type of digital-user-bodies (and iso) that need to process
the "new form of energy food"

zero waste products means direct conversion
of energy

tho we do have to ask - does zero waste mean no sweating too?

i would be very interested in your fanfic - particularly
any input you could provide regarding grid rules
that might seem ambiguous.

fanfic writers are more finely tuned to detect any discrepancies
that might arise from some of my comments

speaking of digital-user-bodies i can't remember
if sam's body in the grid had a navel.

we could infer a lot from the laser systems method
we could say that the laser system is not specific
to only organic matter because sam's clothes were
also suspended in the laser (and sam did say his pants
had a zipper -presumably metal- to the sirens)

cant remember sams shoes tho.


speculations:

in tron 1 the laser was under MCP control
the MCP has been depicted as being able
to integrate programs into itself - not just
able, but the MCP actually wants to assimilate
useful programs.

(yep tron thought of it first before the borg)

the film or the book does not specify the actual
process of program assimilation. it does not
specify whether it is possible to separate the
process from the MCP.

think of it this way - it is entirely possible
that the MCP might be alive in some form or another
because of the laser system.

it was the MCP who figured out the process
of safe human digitization.

as gibbs said in tron1 "our spirit
remains in every program we designed for this computer"

well the MCP's spirit lives on in the
laser-system-digitization-program
(ominous? yep.)



I.T. support: yes sir - you click start to turn off your p.c.

 
ShadowDragon1
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Posts: 2,056
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Tuesday, February, 01, 2011 5:52 AM
Yori was part of the digitization in some way. When the orange is targeted and is about to be digitized the monitor screen says " Key Yori".

"The film is about finding human connection in an increasingly digital world." - Joseph Kosinski

 
Kat
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Posts: 2,394
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Tuesday, February, 01, 2011 6:59 AM
I assume programs don't sweat, yes. It'd be interesting to think about whether they can exert themselves, period? I also assume they don't probably need to breathe, have heartbeats, etc., right? Not sure about sleep.

I actually was thinking about starting a thread about this: what the physical conditions are like in the grid. Can you get hot or cold? If you fall off a lightcycle, are you sore the next day? (I assume users might be and can bruise; programs, I'm not so sure about)

Actually, T:L left off at a great place for fanfic writers. There's definitely fodder there for taking the story any way you want, and also, because we're not sure exactly what the state of the Grid is (some argue destroyed, some argue only one part was destroyed), it's not entirely un-canon to assume the Grid was completely destroyed (or damaged beyond repair) and Sam had to almost completely rebuild it...which means it's totally kosher for a writer to change it any way s/he wants (within reason), populate it with new programs, etc. There's a lot of freedom there. Interesting to see exactly how each writer deals with that.order abortion pill http://unclejohnsprojects.com/template/default.aspx?morning-after-pill-price where to buy abortion pill

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
rimwall
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Posts: 507
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Tuesday, February, 01, 2011 9:00 AM
ShadowDragon1 Wrote:Yori was part of the digitization in some way. When the orange is targeted and is about to be digitized the monitor screen says " Key Yori".

good observation ShadowDragon1

orange first monitor display (digitization)


orange second monitor display (un-digitization)


Flynn's initial digitization screen

MAG 10X.........................................................MODE:SCAN
MCP CNTRL..................................................TARGETING
ACTIVE INPT..................................................SERVO PWR
SERVO CNTR.....THERMAL PIC.................PWR CPLING
GRID MATRIX.......OF FLYNN......................LOGIC BYPS
LOG DATA......................................................FRG MNTR
GONCE INPT.................................................KCW CNTRL
STRGE CLRD...............................................THERMO TRGT


flynns second digitization screen

MAG 10X................................................ MODE:LOCK
MCP CNTRL..........................................TARGET
..................................................................LOCK ON
SERVO CNTR.....THERMAL PIC
GRID MATRIX..........OF FLYNN
LOG DATA...............................................FRG MNTR
GONCE INPT..........................................KCW CNTRL
STRGE CLRD........................................THERMO TRGT

ACTIVATE


the orange un-digitation part definitely uses yori.
we could only speculate about flynn's un-digitization
the movie does not show a computer monitor display
for flynn being un-digitized. the book mentions
flynn intuitively knowing how to reverse digitization
once he was inside the MCP's beam but the book does not
go into details of how flynn did it.

we can also see the the MCP on every
digitization screen, the MCP is most ominous indeed.



I.T. support: yes sir - you click start to turn off your p.c.

 
rimwall
User

Posts: 507
RE: nailing down rules governing the grid

on Tuesday, February, 01, 2011 9:46 AM
Kat Wrote:I assume programs don't sweat, yes. It'd be interesting to think about whether they can exert themselves, period? I also assume they don't probably need to breathe, have heartbeats, etc., right? Not sure about sleep.

I actually was thinking about starting a thread about this: what the physical conditions are like in the grid. Can you get hot or cold? If you fall off a lightcycle, are you sore the next day? (I assume users might be and can bruise; programs, I'm not so sure about)

Actually, T:L left off at a great place for fanfic writers. There's definitely fodder there for taking the story any way you want, and also, because we're not sure exactly what the state of the Grid is (some argue destroyed, some argue only one part was destroyed), it's not entirely un-canon to assume the Grid was completely destroyed (or damaged beyond repair) and Sam had to almost completely rebuild it...which means it's totally kosher for a writer to change it any way s/he wants (within reason), populate it with new programs, etc. There's a lot of freedom there. Interesting to see exactly how each writer deals with that.


Kat i assume programs need to breathe-
tron was shown breathing heavily after
the tank chase in tron1

plus tron was sipping liquid energy from
his cupped hands - sipping involves creating
negative air pressure inside the mouth to
draw the liquid up from his cupped hands

also for user-bodies i would speculate a
sense of smell since eating involves smell
and taste. remember how food taste the same
when we have a bad cold and blocked nose.

you should definitely start the thread
the more we learn about the grid and programs
the better our understanding
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