I think the original thread sums it up perfectly.

I like both movies.

However, I'll have to disagree with the whole, "Dances With Wolves" comparison - let me preface the following before I say it: I mean NO disrespect to the Sioux, but, unlike how the Sioux ended up, the Na'vi actually turned the tide on the people that tried to enslave them, and kicked them off the planet of Pandora. That DID NOT happen in "Dances With Wolves", and it didn't happen in the history related to "Dances With Wolves".

RenegadeProgram Wrote:I like both movies. However, I'll have to disagree with the whole, "Dances With Wolves" comparison - let me preface the following before I say it: I mean NO disrespect to the Sioux, but, unlike how the Sioux ended up, the Na'vi actually turned the tide on the people that tried to enslave them, and kicked them off the planet of Pandora. That DID NOT happen in "Dances With Wolves", and it didn't happen in the history related to "Dances With Wolves".

While I agree with your overall thesis, the whole slight about "Dances With Wolves" is not meant to be a total sum of the plot, and I think there is indeed more to the comparison. What description smacks of to me is the whole "White man vs. native population" or better yet "White man's corporate interests vs. native species and nature" POV that we have seen represented not just historically but hysterically (and I don't mean funny hysterically) in all genres of movies. To me (someone who is mixed race with American Indian heritage) this becomes a big irritant. I know how bad some people in history are, I don't need yet another scifi movie cum allegory to tell me that or try to tell me something profound. Because Avatar did this, it left me emotionally bitter, because once again the storyline tried to play upon the plight of the poor unfacile natives versus the greedy, crafty white man and whatever sympathies I had left. As I'm in my early forties, I am SO past that. Cameron, being a professional film-maker with more years of practice than Kosinski may have woven a filmic masterpiece with advanced computer graphics and synthespians but once again he falls into the latest but not new Hollywood tarpit with story falling into this "politically correct", "Rich white guilt" forced death march. I'm sorry, that is the only way I can explain it and personally I don't want or need to see that, and frankly he should know better. He did it before with "The Abyss" and I understand about film being a "cultural mirror", but even that can be strained beyond credulity. Especially with Cameron's brand of heavy handed preachiness. Now, with TRON Legacy, though not a perfect movie it was a movie with true heart to me. I'm not saying this because we are on a TRON board and we all love tron....That is self evident. I say that because in TRON legacy we not only get delicious visuals but we get a rich sense of computer history, family history and drama that doesn't make you feel like it's a pamphlet dedicated to making you feel guilty because "you" through no fault of your own, you may have profited from a coorporation, nation or politician that screwed over a native population to provide you with life, liberty, and freedom (assuming your country has all that). TRON Legacy showed a fragile connection between a Son and a Father that shatters over an unthinkable premise and then it shows us not just how said son and father will go about repairing that relationship but how the father must reconcile that his life's work full of digital wizardry and goodness is not necessarily good, is not safe and even worse is just as alive as his son and capable of rebelling. And it did all that (to me) without being preachy or pompous or self indulgent. As Kosinski's first film, that is a feather in his cap to me, because I think SciFi can be fun and mindless and visually appealing but good scifi, real meaty scifi will make you think and feel with the story WITHOUT trying to manipulate your conscience with false piety and politically correct navel gazing. When Flynn said to Sam and the audience that his Utopia failed and that perfection is all around us but also unknowable, it was not just a great line that is very true, but it is a statement that describes humanity so succinctly and does so without pretense or excuse. It's not a defeat, it's a factual statement that to me frees not just the spirit but the soul. All our strivings may never end up to the life we really want, but what if with all those strivings we had what we NEEDED all along. And when it says that it doesn't slap you across the face and try to make you feel bad for not realizing it. Though I felt sad in some aspects watching Sam come into this new scary reality, I also felt uplifted. I think we take a lot for granted in this life and hopefully I will be a litte more patient and not so demanding of others and stop and realize that nothing is perfect yet at the same time everything I know resounds of the perfection of a higher order that I right now may not be able to fathom. So, in closing, I feel that the comparision may have a kernal of truth though the history is significanty different. Avatar was not a BAD film, but it was a typical film and I think as film-goers we deserve more than that especially from someone of Cameron's caliber. It's no joke for me to say I learned more from TRON Legacy with it's imperfect scripting than with Avatar and it's savvy script and polished synthetic sheen.abortion pills online abortion pill online purchase cytotec abortion

IsoLine Wrote: RenegadeProgram Wrote:I like both movies. However, I'll have to disagree with the whole, "Dances With Wolves" comparison - let me preface the following before I say it: I mean NO disrespect to the Sioux, but, unlike how the Sioux ended up, the Na'vi actually turned the tide on the people that tried to enslave them, and kicked them off the planet of Pandora. That DID NOT happen in "Dances With Wolves", and it didn't happen in the history related to "Dances With Wolves". While I agree with your overall thesis, the whole slight about "Dances With Wolves" is not meant to be a total sum of the plot, and I think there is indeed more to the comparison. What description smacks of to me is the whole "White man vs. native population" or better yet "White man's corporate interests vs. native species and nature" POV that we have seen represented not just historically but hysterically (and I don't mean funny hysterically) in all genres of movies. To me (someone who is mixed race with American Indian heritage) this becomes a big irritant. I know how bad some people in history are, I don't need yet another scifi movie cum allegory to tell me that or try to tell me something profound. Because Avatar did this, it left me emotionally bitter, because once again the storyline tried to play upon the plight of the poor unfacile natives versus the greedy, crafty white man and whatever sympathies I had left. As I'm in my early forties, I am SO past that. Cameron, being a professional film-maker with more years of practice than Kosinski may have woven a filmic masterpiece with advanced computer graphics and synthespians but once again he falls into the latest but not new Hollywood tarpit with story falling into this "politically correct", "Rich white guilt" forced death march. I'm sorry, that is the only way I can explain it and personally I don't want or need to see that, and frankly he should know better. He did it before with "The Abyss" and I understand about film being a "cultural mirror", but even that can be strained beyond credulity. Especially with Cameron's brand of heavy handed preachiness. Now, with TRON Legacy, though not a perfect movie it was a movie with true heart to me. I'm not saying this because we are on a TRON board and we all love tron....That is self evident. I say that because in TRON legacy we not only get delicious visuals but we get a rich sense of computer history, family history and drama that doesn't make you feel like it's a pamphlet dedicated to making you feel guilty because "you" through no fault of your own, you may have profited from a coorporation, nation or politician that screwed over a native population to provide you with life, liberty, and freedom (assuming your country has all that). TRON Legacy showed a fragile connection between a Son and a Father that shatters over an unthinkable premise and then it shows us not just how said son and father will go about repairing that relationship but how the father must reconcile that his life's work full of digital wizardry and goodness is not necessarily good, is not safe and even worse is just as alive as his son and capable of rebelling. And it did all that (to me) without being preachy or pompous or self indulgent. As Kosinski's first film, that is a feather in his cap to me, because I think SciFi can be fun and mindless and visually appealing but good scifi, real meaty scifi will make you think and feel with the story WITHOUT trying to manipulate your conscience with false piety and politically correct navel gazing. When Flynn said to Sam and the audience that his Utopia failed and that perfection is all around us but also unknowable, it was not just a great line that is very true, but it is a statement that describes humanity so succinctly and does so without pretense or excuse. It's not a defeat, it's a factual statement that to me frees not just the spirit but the soul. All our strivings may never end up to the life we really want, but what if with all those strivings we had what we NEEDED all along. And when it says that it doesn't slap you across the face and try to make you feel bad for not realizing it. Though I felt sad in some aspects watching Sam come into this new scary reality, I also felt uplifted. I think we take a lot for granted in this life and hopefully I will be a litte more patient and not so demanding of others and stop and realize that nothing is perfect yet at the same time everything I know resounds of the perfection of a higher order that I right now may not be able to fathom. So, in closing, I feel that the comparision may have a kernal of truth though the history is significanty different. Avatar was not a BAD film, but it was a typical film and I think as film-goers we deserve more than that especially from someone of Cameron's caliber. It's no joke for me to say I learned more from TRON Legacy with it's imperfect scripting than with Avatar and it's savvy script and polished synthetic sheen.

Hey IsoLine, I like both movies as well. I agree with you to a point, but I also have to respectfully agree to disagree with you on some points, and I actually see some parallels between the two films.

In regards to, "Avatar", I waited until long after it came out on DVD to see it, as I felt after seeing the trailers and teasers that it was a typical European conquest of native peoples and the natives end up enslaved type of story. Upon actually seeing the film, I was pleasantly surprised that the Na'vi didn't end up enslaved. I also give James Cameron (and any filmic storyteller, or even historian) props for approaching this type of subject matter with his/their work, as it reminds us that not all of the history of this country is pretty. As a Black Man with African, Irish, as well as Cherokee, and Blackfoot genes in my ancestry, it was refreshing for me to see someone touching on that type of subject matter in a Hollywood movie from the standpoint of the oppressed overcoming and defeating their oppressor. Was it a perfect film? No. Did I think the Na'vi were poor and defenseless? No, not one bit. Did I see the Na'vi as a self-sufficient, proud people trying to reclaim what was rightfully theirs? Yes. Did I see some historical parallels? Yes, especially with the Maasai in Kenya(after looking at pictures of the Na'vi's headdress and customs). Could the Na'vi have done what they did without Jake Sully's help? Personally, I think they could have - that's one thing I didn't like about the film - I would have liked to have seen Tsu'tey organize a revolutionary force with some of the other Na'vi. Nonetheless, the fact that Jake was willing to see what the Na'vi were going through and for him to rebel against the military corporation he was initially aligned against, I have to give him a little respect.

Now, in regards to Tron and Tron: Legacy I see a slightly similar situation playing out, but told a little differently - to me, the ISOs, are the main (not the only one, though) oppressed population in The Grid, and CLU and his forces are the totalitarian slavemasters. Would have loved to have seen the conversation between that one revolutionary program (the guy with the slash in his face in the End of Line Club; sorry, I forgot his name) and Castor bloom into something more than what was shown in the film. In many of the interviews, especially with Olivia Wilde, I see one of the themes of Tron Legacy (and Tron, as well as Avatar) being freedom, and fighting to reclaim it, as well as anti-fascism. I've also seen CLU (thematically) and his forces being compared to Hitler and the SS, and I can see that comparison, also after hearing an interview with Lisberger that was done a few years ago, where he talks about his family background.If I find the link, I'll post it in this foru. I can also see several parallels in history between Sark and his forces with some of the most wretched and evil forces in history. Am I saying that it's exactly the same? No, of course not, for Sark and Clu are fictional characters -however, literature, or in this case sci-fi films, are often used to convey information or statements about real-world things in a cleverly-constructed fictional way. I

In closing, I like both films and I say they both deal with somewhat similar subject matter: I see the Na'vi and the ISOs fighting against similar foes, and in Tron 1, I saw Kevin Flynn and his co-workers (Alan, Lora, Dr. Gibbs, and the like) fighting against the foes of the MCP, Dillinger and Corporate America. Can't wait to see what Lisberger, Kosinski and Co. have cooked up for Tron 3. Have a good day.

Best Regards,

Renegade Programorder abortion pill morning after pill price where to buy abortion pillwhere to buy abortion pill ordering abortion pills to be shipped to house buy abortion pill online

@IsoLine:

My mistake, Dude.

Logansneo Wrote:The recent Oscar nominations are just proof that Hollywood denies the existence of Tron Legacy! That's OK. They didn't admit the existence of Blade Runner or the Original TRON in 1982 either, thought they did get more nominations the Tron Legacy. http://boxofficemojo.com/oscar/chart/?view=allcategories&yr=1982&p=.htm I admit I'm conflicted with emotions. On one hand I'd be thrilled to have seen Tron Legacy get the nominations it deserves, if for nothing else than to fly in the face of the critics that so derided the film. At the same time I'm actually a little glad that it didn't get those nominations, because Tron Legacy at it's core is the ULTIMATE fan tribute film, with a likely 3rd sequel on it's way. That it even exists is amazing, and that it is such a phenomenal achievement of filmmaking makes it's existence that much sweeter! It doesn't NEED to have these pompous a$$holes in Hollywood give it the credit we know it deserves. I know that what I do in my life has value and meaning, and need no affirmation other than that of my family and friends, my "fan base" as it were, to help reassure me I've done well. Tron Legacy has US! THAT's all it and those who created it really ever needs..... Go and see Legacy again. Buy every copy of every DVD/Blu-Ray edition that they sell, every soundtrack release they make and show your appreciation THAT way. I sure as hell know I'm going to!

wtf is with these ppl nominating both TRON films for just SOUND?????!!!!!!!

Okay, whats the point of this? these films have nothing in common other than the color blue, and that dances with wolves joke is getting old, and stupid.

C.L.U-1 Wrote:Okay, whats the point of this? these films have nothing in common other than the color blue, and that dances with wolves joke is getting old, and stupid.

there is alot more than common than just the color blue abortion pills online abortion pill online purchase cytotec abortion

Logansneo Wrote:Here's another example of how re-used the concept for Avatar is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9bsHAXwaEE And this chart is just too damn funny: http://www.madatoms.com/site/blog/avatar-dances-with-wolves

Oh my God....I have totally lost respect for James Cameron now. I mean, I could be happy he at least shoplifted from a storytelling master but really.