Qix77
User
Posts: 2,991 | Gamer's Bill of Rights
on Monday, February, 16, 2009 1:17 PM
Hey.. Just wanting to get your opinion on this. It is directed towards PC gamers (people like me). I found this to be very agreeable with me, however I would have added something on the lines of better methods than current 'DRM'.
http://www.edge-online.com/blogs/the-gamers-bill-rights
Nevertheless, give it a read and let me know what you think.
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TRON.dll
User
Posts: 4,349 | Re: Gamer's Bill of Rights
on Monday, February, 16, 2009 1:49 PM
I don't think DRM should be banned... World of Goo didn't have any DRM and it's publisher just recently filed for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy as a result because everyone pirated it.
Overall, I think the list provided is pretty good. The problem with being able to return a game if it doesn't work with your PC is that the people in the store have no way of knowing if it actually is incompatible with your PC, as opposed to you just wanting to return it and get your money back because you don't want the game. PC's are a lot more flexible than consoles, and I assume it's a lot easier to pirate PC games than on consoles.
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TRON 2.0 (PC) name - TRON.dll
I'll play any mode, but I'm best at LC.
PSN - TRON-dll
XBOX Live/Games for Windows Live - TRONdll
-I have a Wii, DS, and 3DS. PM me to exchange friend codes.
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Qix77
User
Posts: 2,991 | Re: Gamer's Bill of Rights
on Monday, February, 16, 2009 2:13 PM
That is one area that I disagree with too. PC game returns shouldn't be on the list. This is where I believe that it's the PC gamer's responsibility to know their system and what it can handle.
For the min-specs, it falls into that category as well. Min-specs should only be seen by the gamer as an idea of how the game should run adequately.
Certain DRM is a major downfall, because for those of us who like to shelf our games for a year or two (in the meantime, upgrading or replacing our system) and then wanting to play the game again, then we are screwed. If Unreal Tournament (1999 game) was set up that way, I wouldn't be able to play it today and it's one of my all time favorites.
Console games are being pirated alot these days. Some people are modding their current systems and downloading pirated games on their PC and transferring it to disk and/or memory card. I do admit that it's not as extreme as PC piracy because most console gamers don't know much about such things, but they are catching on.
How I see it, there should be two things that come into order when dealing with piracy. One being a really good non-online-registration method that doesn't restrict the owner to only his current computer so they can still play it on a newer system they may invest in the future (would you like to pop in Portal in about 10 years from now and play it for old time sake without going to molby games and rebuying a game you already own?).... the other should be a highly promoted code of ethics among gamers and their peers. Although the latter may not work so well since the current era has changed so drastically and ethics and honor has been pretty much thrown out the door.
I still play old PC games from time to time. Right now I'm playing 'Beyond Good and Evil' again cause I so love that game. I'm also playing 'Grim Frandago' and 'Tie-Fighter' (dosbox). Just got done playing all three of the Thief series cause I still love those games and hope they make a Thief 4...... Usually if I buy a game I expect to install and play it again 10+ years down the road even if I have to use emulation programs like dosbox to do so. Why should I buy a game that I already legally own?
but thats just me.... I'm very nostalgic. I'm still playing C64 and colecovision games for crying out loud... lol.. :P
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TronFAQ
Sector Admin
Posts: 4,467 | Re: Gamer's Bill of Rights
on Monday, February, 16, 2009 2:23 PM
 
| TRON.dll Wrote:I don't think DRM should be banned... World of Goo didn't have any DRM and it's publisher just recently filed for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy as a result because everyone pirated it. |
Sorry, but that's wrong. It had nothing to do with World of Goo. In fact, World of Goo was their best-selling title, ever. The publisher (Brighter Minds) was already well on their way to bankruptcy, and they don't say anything about World of Goo being the cause of it.
Also, that 90% piracy statistic for World of Goo being thrown around is hardly scientific. Even 2D Boy admitted it. But, hey, it makes for sensational headlines. 
PC's are a lot more flexible than consoles, and I assume it's a lot easier to pirate PC games than on consoles.
[/rant] |
For the 360, at least, all it takes is flashing the firmware of the DVD drive and it's pirate city. All the games you could ever want, for free. If you don't want to do it yourself and risk damaging your Xbox, you can go to places where they'll do it for you for a small fee.
Piracy on the 360 is easy. The only thing anyone worries about, is getting caught on Xbox Live. But if you don't use Live, then you have nothing to worry about.
The PS3 is a different story. Piracy hasn't taken off on the PS3, simply due to cost. Burning games you pirate from download sites, would require you to have a Blu-ray burner. And right now, they cost a fortune. That's what's keeping piracy on the PS3 from really taking off. The 360 uses DVDs, and DVD burners are cheap and plentiful now.
I agree with most of what's listed in that Gamer's Bill of Rights. Not everything, but most of it.
It seems that harsh DRM is going away, already. Thank god. Most of the latest games are starting to use Steam for copy protection.
I know some people still hate Steam, but I find it an acceptable compromise. It treats customers much more fairly than that POS protection scheme known as SecuROM.
 
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Oniell Ford
User
Posts: 253 | Re: Gamer's Bill of Rights
on Monday, February, 16, 2009 3:04 PM
I agree with the Gamer's Bill of Rights. I think that the Number 3 rule is pretty good. Hopefully this will pop into Monolith's mind and start making updates, patches, etc. for TRON 2.0
I'm pretty sick of having to compromise with fan made stuff. They're great, but I hate the fact that it is VERY tough for them to make mods and maps.
It's just not fair and it makes Monolith look like stubborn Money-hogging people that do not care about the game. Just as long as they get money. 
My username on TRON 2.0 is VWrath.User
If you want to play, PM me on this site or contact me on Steam.
"Tron is the jesus of breakfast cerials" - Ticklemetastic (A TRON fan on Steam)
 
  
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TronFAQ
Sector Admin
Posts: 4,467 | Re: Gamer's Bill of Rights
on Wednesday, February, 18, 2009 8:50 AM
Oniell Ford Wrote:It's just not fair and it makes Monolith look like stubborn Money-hogging people that do not care about the game. Just as long as they get money.  |
Well, it's not really Monolith's fault.
I'm not saying they're entirely blameless. They did a really crappy job on the editing toolset for Tron 2.0. Which has made it way more difficult than it should be, to do any mapping or modding for the game.
I know they probably just barely made their deadline for the game, but they couldn't even devote one person to preparing a decent version of the toolset? The tools they released for their previous games were in far, far better shape.
Anyway . . . no, it's Disney's fault. Specifically, BVG/DIS. They called the shots, and Monolith had to follow their marching orders. We approached BVG about releasing more editing materials. I was on the phone with someone at BVG, and that person originally promised to do their best to help us out. But later, we were essentially told to get lost. The bosses at BVG told that person not to help us.
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Traahn
User
Posts: 3,301 | Re: Gamer's Bill of Rights
on Wednesday, February, 18, 2009 3:23 PM
I don't really agree with a few of those points on the list. Some seem a bit over the top to me, and I'm a gamer; several years as a PC gamer.
The thing that bothers me most about games these days is the inability to return them within the first 5 or 7 days if I don't like them. This would probably fall under #8, but would rather it be listed out separately.
There are a number of games that I think I'll like, but then I get them and I don't... but I have no way to take them back, so I'm stuck with a $50-$70 purchase that I won't play much. Or I have to spend a ton of time talking with the manufacturer, writing a letter and shipping the game back at my own expense, etc. to get refunded. Not cool. Manufacturers should stand by their product and retailers should accept returns. Yes, I know piracy is why they don't allow, but there has to be some way to meet-in-the-middle on this for those who aren't pirating.
Also, games that can be beaten in 4 or 5 hours are a joke and I'd feel swindled if I bought a game for $60 not knowing this and then couldn't return it. I was excited to get COD4, and almost bought it at launch, but then read a review where it said the single player game was way short like this. I wouldn't have known this had I not read the review. I shouldn't have to read reviews and have the game spoiled to know this. If I had bought CoD4 and beat it in 4 hours, I should be able to take it back. Such a short game is unacceptable for me. It's fine for others who enjoy the multiplayer aspect, but not me, so I should be able to return it.
    
I'm getting out of here right now, and you guys are invited.   -----^
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achilles
User
Posts: 0 | Re: Gamer's Bill of Rights
on Wednesday, February, 18, 2009 4:07 PM
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Qix77
User
Posts: 2,991 | Re: Gamer's Bill of Rights
on Wednesday, February, 18, 2009 6:19 PM
Traahn Wrote:I don't really agree with a few of those points on the list. Some seem a bit over the top to me, and I'm a gamer; several years as a PC gamer.
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Yeah... I agree too. Some are out there, but others on the list really do make a lot of sense.
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Traahn
User
Posts: 3,301 | Re: Gamer's Bill of Rights
on Thursday, February, 19, 2009 10:09 AM
| achilles Wrote:^ best user name ive seen yet LL |
 
I'm getting out of here right now, and you guys are invited. -----^
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Traahn
User
Posts: 3,301 | Re: Gamer's Bill of Rights
on Thursday, February, 19, 2009 10:12 AM
Qix77 Wrote:
Just got done playing all three of the Thief series cause I still love those games and hope they make a Thief 4...... Usually if I buy a game I expect to install and play it again 10+ years down the road even if I have to use emulation programs like dosbox to do so. Why should I buy a game that I already legally own?
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Sweet, another Thief series fan! I still play Thief 2 every now and then, and I like having the old Thiefs, too (and other old games) so I can play or re-install them whenever I want.
I'm getting out of here right now, and you guys are invited. -----^
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TRON.dll
User
Posts: 4,349 | Re: Gamer's Bill of Rights
on Thursday, February, 19, 2009 11:27 PM
I'm going to give an insight on each of these:
1. Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.
When you get a game for your PC, you should check the system requirements to make sure it'll work with your computer.
2. Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.
I think playable and enjoyable would be better there because of the next item here:
3. Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.
Which serve no purpose if the game is released in a completely finished state.
4. Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.
Generally, that doesn't happen unless there's an update, and that the update needs to be installed to play the game.
5. Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will adequately play on that computer.
Turning all the settings down never hurt anyone, and 15 FPS is about bottom line for "playable" imo.
6. Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their express consent.
I agree with this, and I think iTunes installed more than just iTunes when I dl'd it, lol. Then there's all the stuff about Spore, I dunno.
7. Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.
This only applies to games purchased through a digital download service like Steam, where you can always re-download games you've uninstalled. I see no issue with this.
8. Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.
I agree with this, but then again, how are you supposed to trust someone who could've potentially pirated the game? I'm not calling anyone a criminal, I'm just saying that you can't really trust anyone today, literally. It's sad, I know.
9. Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.
Agreed.
10. Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.
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TRON 2.0 (PC) name - TRON.dll
I'll play any mode, but I'm best at LC.
PSN - TRON-dll
XBOX Live/Games for Windows Live - TRONdll
-I have a Wii, DS, and 3DS. PM me to exchange friend codes.
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Traahn
User
Posts: 3,301 | Re: Gamer's Bill of Rights
on Thursday, February, 19, 2009 11:54 PM
...And going back to my point about being able to get "refunds" for games you don't like...
... the Playstation Network for the Playstation 3. This is another place where refunds should be possible. Heck, since there's probably even a lesser chance of piracy from there, it should be more possible to get a refund there. I've downloaded games and such from there for $2.99, $4.99, $9.99, etc. -- not knowing what exactly I'm getting (no previews or anything available) -- and then play them and don't like 'em; yet, I can't get my money back. What a ripoff. The makers of Tori Emaki should be ashamed of themselves. Way to swindle a few bucks out of people... That was a joke.
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Qix77
User
Posts: 2,991 | Re: Gamer's Bill of Rights
on Friday, February, 20, 2009 12:19 AM
TRON.dll Wrote:I'm going to give an insight on each of these:
1. Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.
When you get a game for your PC, you should check the system requirements to make sure it'll work with your computer. |
I agree. I believe that it's the user's responsibility to know what their system can handle.
2. Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.
I think playable and enjoyable would be better there because of the next item here. |
I have no problems with a game being a little buggy as long as I can download and save to the hard drive the updates so that I can archive them for future installs.
3. Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.
Which serve no purpose if the game is released in a completely finished state. |
Agreed.
4. Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.
Generally, that doesn't happen unless there's an update, and that the update needs to be installed to play the game. |
I disagree. This is where I have major problems with Steam. I should not have to have that running in the back ground when I want to play Half Life 2. If you ever ran across times when a Steam server was down for a few hours (like I did when Steam was new) I couldn't even play my game during that time. I believe it should never ever be forced. If I want updates, then I'll either 'choose' to use the manager, or download them from the web in an HTML manner (which isn't provided with Valve games unless something changed recently). Down with forced managers.
5. Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will adequately play on that computer.
Turning all the settings down never hurt anyone, and 15 FPS is about bottom line for "playable" imo. |
I agree. Min-Specs should be more of a general guide line.
6. Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their express consent.
I agree with this, and I think iTunes installed more than just iTunes when I dl'd it, lol. Then there's all the stuff about Spore, I dunno. |
Yes... I agree 100%... This should be the rule for both games and applications.
7. Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.
This only applies to games purchased through a digital download service like Steam, where you can always re-download games you've uninstalled. I see no issue with this. |
This can go many ways. For instances. If I own UT2004 basic, but then the special edition comes out, then I should be able to download that.... unless there is such a drastic change.... ie... UT2003 is a game by itself so I should not be able to get UT2004 unless it's just a mere upgrade instead of a whole new game all together (or if the upgrade is so great that it becomes a new extension in a company's intellectual property).
8. Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.
I agree with this, but then again, how are you supposed to trust someone who could've potentially pirated the game? I'm not calling anyone a criminal, I'm just saying that you can't really trust anyone today, literally. It's sad, I know. |
True, but because someone out there may be a pirate, I shouldn't ever be considered a criminal for anyone else's crimes. Many former PC game developers that went strictly console blamed the move implying that PC gamers are pirates, when it really was due to their failure to utilize their intellectual properties properly. (EA Sports for example)
9. Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.
Agreed. |
Agreed... which is what I was getting at before. 
10. Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.
Now that's just plain laziness. Back in mah day......  |
lol... true... but I don't like software having to be so dependent on external media. There has to be a much better way since it isn't really a good form of anti-piracy to begin with.
Looks like we see a lot of things eye 2 eye.. I generally like the Bill of Rights but there are areas in there that need to be removed and some others added...
Interesting discussion to say the least.
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