Gosh, yes. Some of this, I've been saying for years.
It's late, so I can't promise how coherent this reply will be, but it's T:B
especially that bothers me. It casts Clu into a much more gray light and brings up a lot of interesting issues that get our brains thinking, but it also has bad implications for both Flynn and Tron. Honestly, if I want to like Flynn, I cut T:B
right out of my headcanon.
Parts you forget: the way Flynn blatantly takes advantage of everyone in that particular piece. It looks like Alan's left scrambling at the company trying to make him look good and cover up for all the times he screws up, goes AWOL, etc. ... and then he waltzes out of the company altogether and leaves Alan at the helm (and remember, Alan's a programmer, not a businessman. He no doubt wants to be in front of a computer screen, not a boardroom).
Jordan's obviously left with much of the childrearing (he can't even bother to show up for the prenatal medical appointments or make it to the birth on time, and he barely does any of the baby prep work considering it seems to be a big deal to have him even go to the store to pick up something for the baby's room), considering the extent to which he falls apart on that front after she dies-- and then plops most of the responsibility on the shoulders of her parents (which they even call him out on... and it doesn't seem he listens).
Tron, Clu, and Shaddox are barely hacking it in the Grid, and Flynn doesn't even bother to take it seriously when they point out-- multiple times-- that everything's pretty fucked-up. He's so excited about the Isos, but it sounds like he never actually interacts with them. Is there anyone he doesn't use, anyone besides himself he has the least bit of consideration for?
He's immature in the first film, and while I may take some exception with character continuity into the second, that part doesn't change-- for all he's supposed to have gained all this wisdom in a thousand years of having his non-action arse plopped on a zafu, he sure as hell hasn't actually done so (I've argued this in other places).
I've felt, through both films, that he's had little sense that programs are equal to users. Now, we could argue this either way, I admit, but I also have to admit that while I can sit on this side of the screen and say one thing about program-vs-user worth, once I'd been looking programs in the eyes, I'm not sure I could sing that particular song anymore.
Let's not talk about how he leaves Tron behind-- twice
-- without a second glance or a tear in his eye. Again, we could argue about this: it's what Tron wants, and it may be more betrayal on Flynn's part to not listen and stick around to endanger BOTH of their lives, and it'd be pretty shitty if Tron dies fighting for Flynn and the thing he's fighting for doesn't come to pass anyway because Flynn doesn't get the hell out of Dodge like Tron told him to. Still...
2. Um, yeah. Yori. I can't think of many ways to make that NOT a shitty thing to do. But it's been debated here before and the consensus seemed to be that the hysterical women were making a mountain out of a molehill and apparently kissing your buddy's significant other/kissing someone else while you're in a relationship is No Big Deal, so that's all I'll say on the subject.
4. I could go on and on. Like, think of human history and conquering civilizations and exploitation and etc. etc. And he wants to perpetrate that on yet another society? Lack of forethought, or does he just not care?
5. I'll give him this... the programs weren't going to have it much better under Clu. The part that gets me is that he still didn't have any altruistic feelings for them. Or for Q for that matter. The ONLY thing that gets him to fight Clu is Sam being in danger-- after all, he's had no desire to get Quorra out of there prior to that, so I don't think it's her safety he was fighting for, which has to feel pretty crappy for her. For that matter, the only thing that actually gets him off his ass is Sam's action-- otherwise he's obviously happy for Sam to get trapped there, too, as long as Flynn doesn't have to actually do anything. Okay, we can talk about apathy and depression etc. (see my Beat of Your Heart
fic) and give him a wee bit of a pass, but...
|J Wrote:It went from being on the verge of irrecoverable crash to stable enough to run uninterrupted for nearly 21 years. |
The other disturbing thought this brings up is: was Clu right??
|Traahn Wrote:I've always seen that as maybe more a writing accident than Flynn being a jerk. (I've also always wondered if Disney/Lisberger maybe nixed the love scene because of the love triangle they created; possibly accidentally created. Lora being Alan's girlfriend and Flynn's ex. Yori being Tron's boyfriend, yet Flynn kisses her. So, adding a Tron + Yori love scene in the mix might've just been construed as 'too much,' especially given the Flynn kiss. .|
Besides the possible controversy of love scene, I always figured they couldn't find a good place to put it. I mean, it's an action movie. It would've made no sense: Tron's like, "we gotta go take down the MCP *now*; my user's calling me, let's go! ... oh, wait, I will stop to get it on." It would've been a stretch to make it work.
|Traahn Wrote: Also, I've never interpreted the programs as 'children' with the Users being their 'parents'?? I guess with the programs seeing their Users as a deity, it's possible to think that way, but I feel programs are more supposed to be parallel lives; alter egos. |
I've never been able to get into it, either. I've created a lot of things in my life, from writing to music to art to yarn and a lot of other things, and I would never see any of that as remotely being any sort of "child" substitute or avatar, for many reasons. Even if I were to find out that, say, a piece of music I'd written had some kind of sentience, I still wouldn't feel that way.
|KingJ.exe Wrote:They're standing, waiting to be rezzed into the Lightcycle Grid, and Tron says that his user wants him to take down the MCP. Flynn pauses, doesn't say anything for a second, and then "My user wants me to do that too."
I think that's the way the scene went, either way it has the same idea.
Other way around, actually. Flynn says something like "I'm starting to remember a lot of things. Like, my user wants me to go after the MCP." Tron's uncertain, then says, "My user wants that, too." At this point, Flynn is still definitely looking out for his own interests: get the hell out of there, and get his evidence.
|J Wrote:I kinda end up here. He wasn't a bad man with bad intentions. That would be his digital doppelganger who chose the nastiest way to implement his directive out of rage and jealousy. His crimes are more out of selfishness, stupidity, and carelessness than malice, but that really doesn't excuse things. His boneheaded actions and lack of forethought ruined the lives of every character in the films.|
DING. At what point does a person's selfishness/lack of consideration for other people surpass "they don't know any better/don't mean it" and become a fault? Certainly if you reach adulthood without managing to notice/care that you are as self-absorbed as he is, some of the culpability starts falling on you.
|J Wrote:Yeah, there's the kicker. Two movies, a graphic novel, a game, and the animated series - and there's so much that's a big, fat question mark
Won't be the first time i"ve said this, won't be the last. There was so much in any of this material that it seems they either didn't think about, or didn't know what to do with, so they glossed over and hoped we wouldn't think about it either. If Disney was smart, they'd scoop up everyone from this forum, put us in a room, let us argue it out, and cherrypick ideas and problemsolving and explanations for their next film-- because obviously the writers all sucked at it and thought about it all a lot less than the fans have.