Or even better, you know "God" as just a regular dude, really. Plus you feel like an old-timer since you're the only one who came from a completely-different system. While everybody on this system is tripping around doing nothing and going to the club and playing games, you remember a time when everybody had to actually work, and you had to fight your ass off for freedom, and the "games" got you killed*... Talk about not feeling like you fit in...

*Makes you wonder how he may've felt when Flynn re-instituted the Games, if Flynn did and it wasn't just something Clu did later. I mean, sure, they're not lethal now, but would you feel like the fact that you once knew them as a way of essentially getting rid of dissidents means it's a bit too flip to make them just something done for fun? On the "old system," were the games EVER just fun and then changed by the MCP, or were they always nothing but death-matches and Tron had never known them by any other definition? Imagine if you moved somewhere else and they were like "Oh, cancer and war? Nah, they're not lethal, they're just something we do because we enjoy it." But to you, the entire definition of those things is that they're terrible and miserable and fatal... how would you feel about treating them so lightly?


I think that's worst, though, is knowing that users can rez in and such. And you know your user-friend knows YOUR user. Yet your own user has never come to meet you, never shown any interest in doing so, etc. I wonder how Flynn explained that to Tron. "Well, dude, y'know, I just never bothered telling your user that you exist, man..."

I think both films pretty well established that programs are more beyond their programming. (And really, what are you or I besides programs who come without a definite directive and whose programming can evolve?) The fact that a security program is in a romantic relationship should tell you that the dude's capable of going beyond his sole directive and of feeling emotion.

And regardless of any rewriting Flynn's done, you don't forget one person just because you get someone new. I've spent my entire life acquiring new friends, new significant others, new bosses, etc. etc., and it doesn't mean that the ones who have been "replaced" have no meaning to me now. In T82, Tron pretty much revered the hell out of Alan, and that's not likely to change, regardless of how many people work on his coding (especially since you never forget your first best friend/love/car/etc.).

But yes, that's another way in which Tron is different, we assume: he's the only one who was accustomed to ONE user, a user he looks like. Hell, these days I'm sure many programs are written collaboratively. And obviously all of the programs in T:L don't look like Flynn (really, the film's not clear about how many of those programs Flynn may have actually created himself. Especially considering the sheer numbers they throw at us on this system, I find it unlikely Flynn wrote them all).

I would think these days, a program (which may have many clones across many systems all over the world, rather than being just one instance on one computer used by one person) would consider their user to be the primary user of the system (if indeed the system is mostly used by only one or a few people. No idea what programs on, say, computers at the library may think). They may even differentiate between "their user" who wrote them and "their user{s}" who use them (maybe a bit like being adopted and never having met your birth parent{s}? You know someone out there was where you originated, but there's a sense of detachment?)


What I've always wondered is how different user profiles work. Say you have two or more people who use the same computer, and they each have their own profile/account that they log into, with their own settings and customizations. How does that seem to programs? Does it all look the same from the inside and they just note that X or Y or Z is logged in right now, or does the difference in preferences means the actual computer world looks different to the programs depending on who's logged in?


Edited to remove spontaneously-occurring strikethroughs...

Kat Wrote:Or even better, you know "God" as just a regular dude, really. Plus you feel like an old-timer since you're the only one who came from a completely-different system. While everybody on this system is tripping around doing nothing and going to the club and playing games, you remember a time when everybody had to actually work, and you had to fight your ass off for freedom, and the "games" got you killed*... Talk about not feeling like you fit in...

He definitely stands apart from everyone else on the Grid. Another reason I imagine him being close to Flynn, too. Flynn's the only person there who remembers the Encom server, even if he was only there briefly. I can imagine Tron trying to describe his old system to other programs on the Grid and getting blank looks in return...

Kat Wrote:*Makes you wonder how he may've felt when Flynn re-instituted the Games, if Flynn did and it wasn't just something Clu did later. I mean, sure, they're not lethal now, but would you feel like the fact that you once knew them as a way of essentially getting rid of dissidents means it's a bit too flip to make them just something done for fun? On the "old system," were the games EVER just fun and then changed by the MCP, or were they always nothing but death-matches and Tron had never known them by any other definition? Imagine if you moved somewhere else and they were like "Oh, cancer and war? Nah, they're not lethal, they're just something we do because we enjoy it." But to you, the entire definition of those things is that they're terrible and miserable and fatal... how would you feel about treating them so lightly?

That's an interesting question. On the one hand, I can see how Tron might feel that this trivializes the Games as he remembers them. On the other hand, I've always felt that Tron was the type of program who likes a good challenge and enjoys testing his skills against others. Flynn's version of the Games gives him (and other programs) a nonlethal venue in which to do just that. I can imagine Tron enjoying these kinder, gentler Games, but having the odd moments of reflection where he feels a bit funny about it all, and is struck by just how long ago and far away his old life on the Encom server feels.

That also makes me wonder how things looked from the other side of the screen when someone was playing Space Paranoids or what have you. Were those games fatal, too? I'm imagining programs chosen to fight against a User being honored beforehand like ritual sacrifices, with the greatest honor of all being reserved for the pilots of the vehicles to be "controlled" by the User himself. Those are the ones who would "hear" the voice of the User giving him orders - "Turn left. Forward here. Move the barrel up and to the left. Now fire!" - similar to Clu hearing Flynn's commands while aboard his tank in the first film. Touched by a divine presence, in other words.

(Alternately, all those battles could be nonlethal for all programs involved, and after the User's done playing, they just dust themselves off and go on down to the local bar to hoist a pint of energy.)

Kat Wrote:I think that's worst, though, is knowing that users can rez in and such. And you know your user-friend knows YOUR user. Yet your own user has never come to meet you, never shown any interest in doing so, etc. I wonder how Flynn explained that to Tron. "Well, dude, y'know, I just never bothered telling your user that you exist, man..."

If Flynn didn't give Tron an explanation, I can only imagine how abandoned he must feel. If he did, I can imagine things bogging down as Flynn tries to explain how things work in the User world (or sidestep the issue, Flynn being Flynn...)

"But why can't you tell them about this system, Flynn? If they're not ready now, when will they be?"

"Look, man, it's complicated. The real world's messy and unpredictable, y'know? But I'm working on it, buddy. I promise you, the day's gonna come when I go public with this, and then I'll bring Alan here to meet you personally. How's that sound? I just need you to hang in there for me a little longer..."

i agree, with your last post argent. i like the idea of programs being polytheists.

and what about ISOs? to be spontaneously spawned of the grid.

flynn created the grid, just like god created the world (if we're talking basic western religious ideas).

we, as the people populating the world, have parents. ISOs do not. at least as far as we know, the first generation just appeared.

do they have a creation myth? is it as simple as "flynn created the grid and we came from the grid"? do they view flynn as their creator, even though flynn's enthusiasm about their spontaneous appearance alludes to he, himself, not feeling like a direct "creator"?

if they dont see flynn as a god or creator, then what are their thoughts about it all? about flynn? and how do they replicate? did further generations have ISO children before the genocide? and depending on their views about their own creation, do they feel betrayed that flynn couldnt save them?

hmmm, so much to think about...

Kat Wrote:In T:B, it seems the Isos are written as sort of stand-offish and isolationist. What they never tell us is whether they're naturally like that, or whether they may have been seen as too "other" by the other programs (especially with the way Clu was going on) and had to withdraw. I would've liked to know which it was, since it definitely changes the dynamic. TBH with you, I've written very little about Isos and when I have, it's been about Isos who, unbeknownst to Clu, came out of the Sea of Simulation after the Purge, so obviously there will be a vastly different attitude than the first set had.

What little information I've seen about ISO culture came from the Tron: Evolution game, and even there, we didn't see much. Arjia City was apparently the "spiritual center of the Grid", and was inhabited by ISOs and ISO-friendly Basics. Radia, the ISO that Flynn meant to elevate to co-admin status alongside Clu, is described in the unlockable background info as an "oracle", and apparently the city was constructed to house her devotees and followers.

I'm not sure how representative any of that is of ISOs as a whole, but I have to admit that it's shaped my perceptions of them. I'm imagining the majority of ISOs as spiritualists in white, who spend much of their time isolated from the rest of the Grid, meditating and contemplating the nature of their universe. Then you have ISOs like Quorra who want to do things rather than spending all their waking cycles navel-gazing, so they dress in Basic black and go out into the outside world to explore and rub shoulders with ordinary programs...

Kat Wrote:Another thing I realized about poor Tron... he gets the short end of the stick. All the damn time. Sacrifices himself for everyone else, who are always like "well, see ya, buddy!" Clu rebels, Tron fights for Flynn, Flynn runs off and leaves him (but I'll accept that, since we could argue that Flynn would have been wrong to do otherwise; if someone's fighting for you, especially if it's because you're not that great of a fighter yourself [and let's face it, we have no idea if Flynn's any good at this], and they tell you to run, you maybe shouldn't stick around and get both of you killed for nothing). But at the end? Man, Tron totally turns on Clu and saves the day, and everybody's like "did something just happen? Oh, whatever. Ooh, look, shiny portal!" And he's like, "don't mind me, I'm just over here getting my ass kicked and dying and stuff." Ouch. (In the first film, too, I suppose. Tron's down there running like crazy, even fighting a dude who's literally three or four times his size, Flynn just jumps into a shaft of light and Yori's like "Oh Tron, Flynn saved us!")

I would have at least liked to have seen Flynn realize that Tron had (apparently) just made the ultimate sacrifice for them. He recognizes Rinzler as Tron, despairs over what's become of him, Rinzler rams Clu, and nobody seems to know or care what just played out behind them. "Oh, would you look at that! Something just happened and now we're in the clear! Let's go, guys!"

Kat Wrote: Argent Wrote:I would have at least liked to have seen Flynn realize that Tron had (apparently) just made the ultimate sacrifice for them. He recognizes Rinzler as Tron, despairs over what's become of him, Rinzler rams Clu, and nobody seems to know or care what just played out behind them. "Oh, would you look at that! Something just happened and now we're in the clear! Let's go, guys!" Yes, precisely what I've always said (LOL... should I just have a standard "oh yeah, totally, man!" response for everything you post and save myself some typing? ). Even if nobody knows what happened to him, even if nobody even knows he turned (I suppose it's possible they either didn't see him ram Clu, or if they did they thought it was just an accident), nobody thinks "gee, that's Tron who was repurposed, maybe we should try to save him"?? And nobody really seems to mourn him, either. (I guess it kind of goes back to how Sam may feel about Tron right now. On one hand: this is one of his uber-childhood heroes, dude. On the other hand: the guy just made a damn good effort at killing Sam, which would sort of make you view someone a bit less kindly. On one hand: not like it's Tron's fault. On the other hand: dude would still kill Sam if he could [we assume??]. Because I always wondered, what would go through Sam's mind when fighting him? You would think you'd be like "dude, I can't try to kick his ass... this is TRON." But I suppose if the first time you ever meet him, he's corrupt, you may not see him the same way? So after the film, then how does Sam feel about him? Is Tron still a hero to him, or still just a corrupt program, or some weird mix of both?

I dunno. And perhaps Tron's "Abandonment" may have something to do with their original plan: get to the other side of the screen where CLU is over in a keystroke, fix everything with some tippity tappity on a keyboard, and continue working on the Grid. They may have planned on fixing Tron from the outside, or coming back later to fix em up.

LWSrocks2 Wrote:According to Betrayal, the games have always existed on Flynn's grid, they just weren't lethal- they were a form of entertainment. Clu took them and bastardized them after he confronted Flynn, damaged Tron, and began the Purge.

Yes, I know. But since not everyone takes T:B as canon, I try to skirt the line between it and the films. And according solely to the films, we don't know.