Argent Wrote:I'm thinking that he coded some sort of shell from the console, then went into the system to extract the neural data from his scanned-in template and integrate it. The result being a program whose overall thought processes (though not memories) are based on a snapshot of Flynn's at the time of the "mirroring". There's not a lot in the way of an official explanation to go on, unfortunately. :/

It makes as much sense as anything, especially with Flynn's line about "You don't know that because I didn't when I created you." Sort of suggests Clu's pretty much unable to "grow" past Flynn's attitudes at his creation... though I might argue that he actually did...


(I also could perhaps argue he might have an emotional attachment to Tron. But, it would be for another discussion as to how Sam might feel about Tron at this moment.)

Tzigone Wrote:I also think the Grid can't have been 100% destroyed. Firstly, because we saw Tron light up again blue, and there's no reason for that to happen if not to keep open the possibility that he could be back later. Secondly, because they talked about how reintegration would destroy Flynn - they never said it would kill everyone else in the Grid, and I think that would have been worth mentioning as a reason Flynn hadn't done it.

For the first-- I always thought that was for closure. We see him definitely revert back before he "dies" and awww, everybody is happy. (though if you want I could make an argument that if anything were to survive that, it might be Tron.)

For the second-- it's possible that it's just that Flynn doesn't *know.* Which may or may not be a stretch, depending on how you want to look at it-- whether you consider we're getting the info *from Flynn*, whose understanding may be imperfect, or *from the moviemakers.*

CardioFunk Wrote: Pilgrim1099 Wrote:The other thing to consider is Rinzler in the water. Is he gonna swim ALL the way to the city? . I don't think programs worry about breathing air. So he could walk across the ocean floor like the ISO's did. Perhaps the ISO's will come back with Tron, or have some kind of base hidden under the sea of simulation.

I too am not sure programs need to breathe, or if they do, I'm not sure the Sea counts (we'd need more info on what it IS, I think, to be able to form too many concrete ideas on its properties, but just for myself I've come up with some idea-- I think based on some stuff folks here have said, though I can't remember if any of that was canon from somewhere or just speculation-- that it's some sort of primordial soup more than a body of water in the conventional sense we'd think about it. Hence, perhaps Tron survived the blast because it protected him, and perhaps one does not need to breathe in there, etc. And even, if you wish, perhaps his circuitry changed color because it helped to "repair" him-- because you notice HE changed even though the COLOR didn't-- and that could have some specific meaning, or perhaps they just didn't want us to have that cue that he changed before they actually showed him going against Clu).

In one of my fics... I think perhaps it's Angel... I have him drifting, and he's not harmed by being underwater. Presumably, I suppose, he might get somewhere (and in yet another fic that is not finished, he does), but again... we don't actually know if the Sea of Simulation has currents of any sort, so perhaps he wouldn't get anywhere at all.

laphtiya Wrote:I don't think Clu grew at all, he was still living to the code programmed into him by Flynn. What has changed however is his interpretation of this code (sort of),

Yes, and that's why I say you could argue for growth of a sort. He went from "I do what my user tells me" and "we're going to build this together" to "screw him, I do what I want." I think, too, that the Isos and what went on around them changed his outlook vastly. At least throughout T:B, I feel like you see definite changes. He goes from merely frustrated to...a little nutty, really.

laphtiya Wrote:The reason for keeping Tron around I think was simply put down to waste not, he had a good fighter why not keep him?

If you're talking about one of the things I said above, I wasn't clear, I just realized, sorry-- I was referring to Sam when I was talking about emotional attachments to Tron and it didn't come out well because somehow I missed quoting the part where you were talking about Sam's emotional attachments to the Grid/its inhabitants.

laphtiya Wrote:However Clu might be able to change his own code we don't know, he can reprogram others why not himself?

I'm not sure he feels the need to, to be honest with you. He thinks he's right; why would he need to reprogram himself? Clu is like the embodiment of the song Let The Bodies Hit The Floor-- "NOTHING WRONG WITH ME! NOTHING WRONG WITH ME!!" Or, at least, so *he* thinks. (Really. Listen to the song again-- it pretty much fits, as if he's talking to Flynn. Can't take much more ... nothing wrong with me ... something's got to give ... driven by hate, consumed by fear ... let the bodies hit the floor...)

laphtiya Wrote:But after watching Tron again you see the sea of simulation and rocks in the surrounding area, these are part of the Grid both coded and created by Flynn they exist still so does the Grid. Also you see the portal still active before it cuts to the real world scene so the Grid is still active and working just the area around the portal is decimated. There is no suggestion that the grid was destroyed, if anything the footage shows us that the Grid is fine except for what used to be the portal.

*shrugs* Again, I think it's up to interpretation as they don't say one way or the other. I'm not sure if they meant it to be ambiguous (so they'd have an opening for a sequel if they so chose) or if they just weren't good at showing what they intended, but I think there are a lot of valid interpretations that aren't disproven by what we're shown in the film. I never argued that either the portal or the Grid *as an entity* are gone. The portal isn't part of the Grid per se, and the system itself probably still exists as a virtual construct; what is up for interpretation is whether anything is still on it or if it's now a blank slate without buildings, programs, etc.

lifeasis Wrote:Of course Disney left out Cindy Morgan and David Warner in TRON Legacy, but that was understanding due to their roles in the original TRON film and the fact Sark was killed off in the first film and Laura Baines was killed off in the first comic book series.

Ok, yes to the fact that Sark was kiled off, but no to the fact that Laura was. Laura (and BTW, Yori too) is still alive and well. David Warner's other character, Ed Dillinger Sr., is also still alive. We just don't know where they are as of Legacy.

laphtiya Wrote:A little nutty? The guy is all kinds of crazy! Or is he? Lets ignore T:B for now as we are not 100% sure on its canon status lets just take what we see in the movie. Clu receives the following commands: 1) You are Clu. 2) You will create the perfect system. 3) Together we are going to change the world. Okay the third one may not be a command but we don't know for how long Clu was in "receive orders" Status. So the first one is always consistent, then the ISOs come along they go completely against directive 2. They are not perfect, they have no purpose, therefor they cannot be part of the perfect system. Flynn then abandons his idea for perfection and decides he wants to change the world with the ISO's and NOT CLU this breaks directive 3, again this means CLU cannot create the perfection he is programmed for. You sort of begin to feel sorry for him in a small way because he cannot do anything but what he was created for, then all of a sudden he has no purpose, no meaning because his user abandons him for something else something Flynn deems better. This for me shows that Flynn has been in the system too long and has begun treating these programs as people, forgetting they are programs and cannot grow (something he realises later).

TBH with you? i think taking *just* T:L makes him look like even more of a whackjob. At least in T:B he comes across as a dude who's frustrated that the system he's supposed to keep running smoothly is going to hell and the guy who's supposed to fix it doesn't bother... and then he carries that way over the line. In T:L, he's just the equivalent of a jealous little kid who goes completely nuts and commits genocide and shit solely because Flynn slighted him. Ouch.

laphtiya Wrote:More than likely it was me reading it wrong and not you. [

No, I realized I sort of transitioned between talking about Clu and talking about Sam without... actually saying that's what I was doing. When I re-read, I realized even I almost didn' t know which I was talking about.

laphtiya Wrote:Yeah true, that does go well with what is going on in his craaaaaaazy bit brain. .

Eerily well, because I always interpreted that part of the song as ironic-- essentially being a person who obviously perceives that someone else thinks there's something a little off with them... and is angrily yelling "nothing wrong with me"-- yet the tone and the rest of the song suggests that yeah, there is... Clu thinks he's in the right, so he'd see no need for HIM to change.

laphtiya Wrote:Hmmmm, I know what you're saying but wouldn't if have been better if they didn't show the Grid after the explosion to serve this purpose? The Sea is there, the rocks are there. And I am sure they've said in an interview that Tron is floating in the Sea of Simulation (I'll see if I can find it and post it again ). Also we know it survived due to copying over on to the memory stick, I know we briefly talked about this before and I said that Sam would have checked the file size of the Grid and if it had been destroyed it would have either read a bit zero or gave a corruption error. The fact that there was something there for Sam to copy tells us that the Grid still exists, we don't know how messed up it is but it is still there. I guess we will see if/when Tron 3 comes out.

Well, not necessarily, 'cause like I said, I assume that bare rock = plain hard drive space with nothing coded in. So if that's the case, then they essentially WERE showing it's all gone. I figured Sam got fragmented bits and pieces of damaged code. And, perhaps, Tron, since like I said, perhaps we could argue that the nature of the Sea protected him.

Although I'm still intrigued by someone else's idea-- was it Tzigane?-- that what we see is not all of the data imploding like some sort of digital black hole, but essentially all of it being pulled onto Sam's memory disk. I see that as completely plausible as well, with the way they show it-- we see EVERYTHING getting pulled to a single point of light, which then transforms into the light on the memory disk.